Siliconslave's how to make espresso thread

Raymond Lin said:
I think I am looking for a machine with PID and pressure gauge and E60 group head but not at the Mozz price...
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I know that feeling. Hence I ordered a Mara X first but knew it was not quite what I wanted so went for the Rocket. I think the prices have gone up another £100 since March. I don't think the Rocket machines offer good value for money on the face of it compared to Lelit and ECM/Profitec, but sometimes that sort of rational goes out the window.

I think a PID is well worth it, I don't bother with cooling flushes or any of that process that a lot of HX owners seems to go through.
 
with the zeitgeist
- have started energy monitoring on the HX machine - about 0.25KW/hr per 2doubles session, of which I have two a day , so circa 10p a day.
currently it's boiler is uninsulated (need a govt grant)
 
I'd don't follow the news too closely but aren't people gluing themselves to the m25 to promote insulating espresso machines or something?

Thats cheaper than I expected, is that including all the warm up?
 
Includes warm up - but you are right it seems low, boiler capacity is 1.5Litres, it's probably on for 30-40mins total,
during which the uninsulated brass boiler is radiating away;
If it only uses 2.5 times the energ of boiling 1.5L of water it seems low

will do some comparisons with my electric kettle - to see if the energy meter is accurate.


As a result, when working out how much energy electric kettles use, many people reference electric kettle maximum ratings or simply use Npower’s statement that notes: it takes 3 minutes to boil 1.5 litres of water (i.e. what an average kettle holds), which results in approximately 0.1 kWh of electricity consumed.
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OK, so I've had a Barista Express for about a month now. I've faffed and faffed with grind settings, tamp pressure etc but the shot always seems to sputter out of the portafilter, not the steady 'honey' like stream the instructions indicate. I'm using 18g of beans per double shot and the resulting espresso is around 60ml in around 20 to 24 seconds from button push. Pressure gauge rises into the correct zone for espresso after about 3 to 4 seconds.

I need to use a mug to ensure I catch all of the shot - if I used and espresso sized cup I'm sure a lot of the espresso would miss the cup.

Any ideas? I'm thinking of a bottomless portafilter to see what happening during extraction. Is this worth a go?
 
firstborn said:
OK, so I've had a Barista Express for about a month now. I've faffed and faffed with grind settings, tamp pressure etc but the shot always seems to sputter out of the portafilter, not the steady 'honey' like stream the instructions indicate. I'm using 18g of beans per double shot and the resulting espresso is around 60ml in around 20 to 24 seconds from button push. Pressure gauge rises into the correct zone for espresso after about 3 to 4 seconds.

I need to use a mug to ensure I catch all of the shot - if I used and espresso sized cup I'm sure a lot of the espresso would miss the cup.

Any ideas? I'm thinking of a bottomless portafilter to see what happening during extraction. Is this worth a go?
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My first guess sounds like you're using store bought beans and not freshly roasted ones - is my assumption correct? Being in the espresso zone after 3-4 seconds sounds like a really quick pre-extraction.

I found when I started buying freshly roasted beans I got a nice stream like you're describing pretty quickly, with the same machine
 
sounds like your getting too much volume through in too little time, you want to be aiming for 1:2 in 25 seconds - so 18grams beans in = 36g coffee out.

The fact you're getting 60ml suggest you need to grind finer or improve your beans as Junglist says.

I'm not sure if the Barista express can grind fine enough to choke the machine but try going finer and finer until you run out of adjustment or hit 2:1
 
How long does it take before it starts flowing (tbh I don't know for sure but think that time should be included ??? for me yes) 18g is quite a lot of coffee and I suspect it could be channeling after having to build up pressure for a long time ?
I'd try 14/15g.

Supermarket beans are fine, you just have to be careful on deducing the roast date, used to be nearly a year before use by date, for Aldi;
some of the supermarket beans obviously roasted by the same folks who sell for a lot more directly via web, they have to amortize capital investment.

----

other news - PRICES
There's not much you can do to hedge against this upcoming price hike if the the May stories on Brasil harvest , reiterated recently in news >$4/kg source - a subscription ?
 
I always include the time before the pour - start the timer as you hit the button :)

jpaul said:
How long does it take before it starts flowing (tbh I don't know for sure but think that time should be included ??? for me yes) 18g is quite a lot of coffee and I suspect it could be channeling after having to build up pressure for a long time ?
I'd try 14/15g.
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good point - forgot its a small basket on the sages!

jpaul said:
other news - PRICES
There's not much you can do to hedge against this upcoming price hike if the the May stories on Brasil harvest , reiterated recently in news >$4/kg source - a subscription ?
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Might be worth a go, but I doubt the roasters are going to keep their current prices once the shortages start to bite. You could invest in a vacuum sealer and freeze a load of beans, or buy a load of green and roast yourself but honestly i think were just going to have to pay if we want to keep getting decent coffees.

I popped into the algerian coffee shop in london the other week, not my favourite place but the wife (usually) likes their seasonal blends, almost bought some skyberry from them for nostalgias sake but it was £20 for 250g!!!
 
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I typically do 17-18g and I have the same machine and it's never really caused an issue in the double shot basket

May try a lower weight and see if it's any better
 
also are you using pressurized baskets ? were there 4 or 2 baskets in the boxgun there are two models
jpaul said:
I can believe pressurized maybe less tolerant of new beans, which need a tighter grind,
and higher pressure causes channelling on imperfectly packed pucks, which we all make, faster.

edit see pics here https://www.homegrounds.co/breville-barista-express-review/
You get 4 filter baskets when with the Barista Express – pressurized and non-pressurized versions of a single and double filter. You could also call them single or double walled baskets.
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had a look at other sage threads and they tend to recommend 18g of beans so it should be ok - this seems a good write up:

OK - first things first,

1.What makes the Sage/Breville different, why do some of the regular rules not apply?
Because it has a thermocoil/jet instead of a boiler. I don't know how common this is or isn't in the coffee world. But by comparison the gaggia (which many will have started with) has a small boiler instead.
The coil is, as the name suggest a set of small pipes. Water is shot through and heated as it passes through.
I think of this as like an electric shower, in that flow can change the rate at which the water is heated. This is important for later!

Now, don't get me wrong, the sage stuff seems to be well advanced compared to the old crappy thermoblock stuff. But it's still got issues you need to know about.

This means that you are not going to get the Sages warmed up by just switching them on. You are going to need to run a few cycles of hot water through it first.

My pro pulls it's best shot on the 4th cycle and so on.

2. The sages are technical in their control. This means
- The temp is very stable
- If you play by it's rules (keep reading)

3. Why you must use fresh beans in a sage..... 1-5weeks old MAX!

This is probably the most important point so I've made it bold!
Anytime you call sage they will ask you if you've used fresh beans.

Why?
Have you noticed when you use older beans you have to grind finer and finer? Changes in the bean from the environment (oxidation, moisture etc.) not only make the bean become stale and lifeless, but make it far quicker and easier to extract what flavour is left, the puck doesn't present much resistance (also no Co2 release) so it runs through fast.

If you want to see this in action grind a FRESH bean and leave overnight, then use the next day. No crema, fast tasteless extraction.

WHY DOES THIS MATTER SO MUCH IN THE SAGE?

Because the sage relies on the flow being slowed down in the group head, to generate the right pressure and temp.
This is why if you measure the temp of the water just falling out of the group it will not be accurate, as the flow has increased through the thermocoil/jet and it might not be able to keep up with supplying fresh energy fast enough for heating.

Is this starting to make sense?

So your plan is

1. Buy a sage

2. Buy some decent beans from Black cat, Rave, James Gourmet whoever,
JUST DON'T PUT SUPERMARKET BEANS IN IT!

IF YOU ONLY HAVE CRAPPY BEANS GRIND THEM A LITTLE COARSER AND USE THE PRESSURISED BASKET (OR A FRENCH PRESS!)

This is why so many people are asking why their extraction is so short.

4. The volumetric measure is WRONG!
Don't rely on it. measure it manually.



5. The grinder is inconsistent in it's grind time. Every time you change the grind setting or bean the amount you get is different. It's even different day to day with exactly the same setting! So get a set of scales.



BUY A SET OF SCALES - YOU NEED IT!



6. The grinder top burr is set for fresh coffee, medium roast (mostly)
You can adjust the grinder with the side knob, but this is only a set of steps WITHIN a set of steps.

In my experience the stock upper burr position (5?) is good for medium through to medium dark.

I have had to adjust it (down to 4) with anything lighter than that, such as a Guatemalan hard bean or weirdly a medium roast Monsooned Malabar.

This is also why your supermarket beans won't work with the standard settings, you may be able to get them to work with adjusting this burr

So if you're on number 1 on the grind setting and still getting a fast extraction you will need to adjust that burr.
But like bike gear there is crossover, so you may be able to keep it at number 4.



Can you see where this is going?

To get the sage to work optimally, both providing the right pressure and temp for a great extraction (or even a half decent one) you have to create the right amount of resistance in the puck.
Deviate from this even a small amount and the machine won't like it.

This is even more important in the new thermojet, the DTP and older models have more leeway.

Final point.

Weigh everything and ignore the pressure gauge!

Final final point

The thermocoil/jet design has small pipes so the sage is EXTREMELY prone to scale. So if your machine is more than a few months old or a refurb think scale first and use the right water in it!
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Siliconslave said:
I popped into the algerian coffee shop in london the other week, not my favourite place but the wife (usually) likes their seasonal blends, almost bought some skyberry from them for nostalgias sake but it was £20 for 250g!!!
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That's doubled in price since January last year when I paid a visit. If that's the Australian Skyberry though.
 
Thanks all. I'm going to continue to have a play.

I've been using the single walled baskets as these were labelled for freshly ground beans.

Is a bottomless portafilter worth a go to see what maybe going on? If so any recommendations?
 
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