Petition to the government to not implement offences for modifying vehicles

[Mekrel]

This happens so rarely that it's a non-issue. You're suggesting punishing those that want to modify their cars (body kits, suspension, performance chips etc) because of something you witness maybe once a month if lucky.

I can count on 1 hand the amount of pops and bang cars I've heard over the last 2 months.

For you perhaps, try living on a 30mph A-road where the majority of cars aren't audible except those that make ridiculous pop and bang noises, even at low speeds. Add to the fact these knuckle dragging idiots also have nothing better to do than cruise around back and forth until the early hours of the morning when people are trying to sleep then you start to see how anti-social it is.

It's just ridiculous considering I can't hear a 70dB washing machine on full spin five meters away through three stud walls, but I can hear these cars from the same distance through an external wall with audio proof laminated triple glazed windows. There's just no need for it.

Modern day 500bhp+ saloons such as an M3 aren't that noisy when driving at 30mph. Yet a 1.2 re-mapped Fiesta with custom exhaust can come past and it sounds like gun fire at the Somme.

 

[theone8181]

For you perhaps, try living on a 30mph A-road where the majority of cars aren't audible except those that make ridiculous pop and bang noises, even at low speeds. Add to the fact these knuckle dragging idiots also have nothing better to do than cruise around back and forth until the early hours of the morning when people are trying to sleep then you start to see how anti-social it is.

It's just ridiculous considering I can't hear a 70dB washing machine on full spin five meters away through three stud walls, but I can hear these cars from the same distance through an external wall with audio proof laminated triple glazed windows. There's just no need for it.

Modern day 500bhp+ saloons such as an M3 aren't that noisy when driving at 30mph. Yet a 1.2 re-mapped Fiesta with custom exhaust can come past and it sounds like gun fire at the Somme.

How are you hearing them through audio proof triple glazing? I'd have thought that would make everything quiet. Also didn't realise old cars were mot exempt, surely the older the car the more needed an mot is?

 

[grudas]

For you perhaps, try living on a 30mph A-road where the majority of cars aren't audible except those that make ridiculous pop and bang noises, even at low speeds. Add to the fact these knuckle dragging idiots also have nothing better to do than cruise around back and forth until the early hours of the morning when people are trying to sleep then you start to see how anti-social it is.

It's just ridiculous considering I can't hear a 70dB washing machine on full spin five meters away through three stud walls, but I can hear these cars from the same distance through an external wall with audio proof laminated triple glazed windows. There's just no need for it.

Modern day 500bhp+ saloons such as an M3 aren't that noisy when driving at 30mph. Yet a 1.2 re-mapped Fiesta with custom exhaust can come past and it sounds like gun fire at the Somme.

Don't live near an a road or accept the noise?there's a reason houses etc are much cheaper. Also lorries etc will be as loud and louder.

 

[Mekrel]

How are you hearing them through audio proof triple glazing? I'd have thought that would make everything quiet. Also didn't realise old cars were mot exempt, surely the older the car the more needed an mot is?

It's not audio proof by description, it's acoustic glass and is similar to the lamented glass you get in modern cars. When a new property is built, audio levels are taken of the surrounding areas and appropriate sound proofing is used to meet the required ISO levels for noise (this ISO level differs for bedrooms vs living spaces). Unsurprisingly, the sound levels aren't based on selfish people who choose to make their cars unnecessarily loud.

Don't live near an a road or accept the noise?there's a reason houses etc are much cheaper. Also lorries etc will be as loud and louder.

Knew this would be a response. Do you really think that's an acceptable answer? Millions of properties up and down the UK next to A roads should be rendered inhabitable because of people choosing to make their cars louder? I genuinely don't hear lorries, these exhausts are louder than the road or engine noises created by lorries. At least choose a point and stick to it Grudas, you've gone from being against this position because of lack of car parts for EOL vehicles, to now arguing for increasing noise pollution for selfish reasons.

I reiterate, general traffic noise is completely acceptable here.

 

[grudas]

It's not audio proof by description, it's acoustic glass and is similar to the lamented glass you get in modern cars. When a new property is built, audio levels are taken of the surrounding areas and appropriate sound proofing is used to meet the required ISO levels for noise (this ISO level differs for bedrooms vs living spaces). Unsurprisingly, the sound levels aren't based on selfish people who choose to make their cars unnecessarily loud.



Knew this would be a response. Do you really think that's an acceptable answer? Millions of properties up and down the UK next to A roads should be rendered inhabitable because of people choosing to make their cars louder? I genuinely don't hear lorries, these exhausts are louder than the road or engine noises created by lorries. At least choose a point and stick to it Grudas, you've gone from being against this position because of lack of car parts for EOL vehicles, to now arguing for increasing noise pollution for selfish reasons.

I reiterate, general traffic noise is completely acceptable here.

I do. I live near a busy road and I rarely hear straight piped fiestas so I think your moaning about it is blown out of proportion. Yes it happens, yes it's audable but no it isn't a big deal. My Honda is quite loud compared to most stock cars but aye oh.. Different people different hobbies/likes.

Also unhabatable!? Really? You make it sound like every other car is a fiesta with a pop and bang map letting of accelerator as it drives past your front door. Cmon.

Go have a listen to a standard v8 ftype jaguar or a range rover svr. Tell me how quiet it is and how this will fix it

 

[Mekrel]

I do. I live near a busy road and I rarely hear straight piped fiestas so I think your moaning about it is blown out of proportion. Yes it happens, yes it's audable but no it isn't a big deal. My Honda is quite loud compared to most stock cars but aye oh.. Different people different hobbies/likes.

How do you know it's blown out of proportion? You don't live here. I appreciate people have hobbies, plenty of people have hobbies that don't negatively impact other people. Want a loud car? Sure, I've not problem with that - go blast it around a track, motorway or country lane. Don't go making your car drone, pop and bang at low RPMs and do laps of urban areas.

 

[grudas]

How do you know it's blown out of proportion? You don't live here. I appreciate people have hobbies, plenty of people have hobbies that don't negatively impact other people. Want a loud car? Sure, I've not problem with that - go blast it around a track, motorway or country lane. Don't go making your car drone, pop and bang at low RPMs and do laps of urban areas.

Guess we do have different experiences. I personally am able to tolerate it. Do I like it? No. Are there bigger things to worry about? Absolutely. Banning everything that irritates me would not end well.

 

[Mekrel]

Guess we do have different experiences. I personally am able to tolerate it. Do I like it? No. Are there bigger things to worry about? Absolutely. Banning everything that irritates me would not end well.

The point you made was essentially "don't like it, move". So law abiding members of the public should succumb to people who chose to make the car louder? That's a ridiculous stance and you know it. I could understand if I was complaining about general traffic noise.

I'm not entirely against car modifications, want to install coil overs and lower the car for aesthetics - that doesn't impact anybody. Making your car louder only serves one person and that's your desire to have a louder car. The majority of stock performance car aren't making high levels of noise unless they're being opened up at high RPMs (especially with the advent of GPFs, cylinder deactivation etc), but that's not the point here. It's the modified cars that are just loud for the sake of it.

You can't argue that making your car louder is in the interest of the general public.

 

[grudas]

The point you made was essentially "don't like it, move". So law abiding members of the public should succumb to people who chose to make the car louder? That's a ridiculous stance and you know it. I could understand if I was complaining about general traffic noise.

I'm not entirely against car modifications, want to install coil overs and lower the car for aesthetics - that doesn't impact anybody. Making your car louder only serves one person and that's your desire to have a louder car. The majority of stock performance car aren't making high levels of noise unless they're being opened up at high RPMs (especially with the advent of GPFs, cylinder deactivation etc), but that's not the point here. It's the modified cars that are just loud for the sake of it.

You can't argue that making your car louder is in the interest of the general public.

Driving a car in general is not in the interests of general public. You're making it sound like you have a gang of 1.2 fiestas sitting outside your front door red lining their engines. I am 99% sure that is absolutely not the case and you're simply fed up with something that probably happens 5 times a day and lasts 45s combined and want to rant about it. That's fine. Screaming ban this and ban that is not the way to approach it. If you're genuinely sensitive to that noise then yes buying a more expensive property tucked away from busy roads is the way. There's a good reason those houses cost less and that is pollution..noise and air.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

@Mekrel is spot on here and @grudas couldn't be further off the mark, things like pops and bang maps are utterly ridiculous, particularly so on some Gary boy 1.0l chav wagon which they typically get put on.

 

[Conscript]

No one has said they aren't utterly ridiculous.
Just that banning all vehicle modification in response, is. Especially as "pops and bangs" aren't limited to modified cars anyway. Most annoying car in my local area is the seemingly unmodified Merc saloon further down the road, which burps and farts its way down the road on every gear change.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Just that banning all vehicle modification in response, is.

It doesn't... my interpretation to what was actually written is very different. The bold is my emphasis.

Tackling tampering
We will create new offences for tampering with a system, part or component of a vehicle intended or adapted to be used on a road. This will enable us to address existing gaps in the legislation, ensuring cleaner and safer vehicles. We will also create new offences for tampering with non-road mobile machinery (NRMM) and for advertising ‘tampering’ services or products.

This will strengthen our ability to enforce compliance in this area.

We are aware that the Law Commissions in both their first and third consultations on automated vehicles have considered tampering. We await their final recommendations and would welcome views on our proposals, as follows.

Specifically, we would look to create:

• a specific offence for supplying, installing and/or advertising, a ‘tampering product’ for a vehicle or NRMM – this would apply where a principal effect of the product is to bypass, defeat, reduce the effectiveness of or render inoperative a system, part or component (the product may be a physical part or component, hardware and/or software)
• a specific offence for removing, reducing the effectiveness of, or rendering inoperative a system, part or component for a vehicle/NRMM and advertising such services
• a specific offence for allowing for use or providing a vehicle or NRMM that has had the operations described in the previous 2 points performed on it
• a new power to require economic operators to provide information, where a service/product they have supplied amounts to or enables ‘tampering’ with a vehicle or NRMM – this would apply in any of the above senses and include requirements to provide relevant information on the quantities of products sold or modified

We would like to emphasise that our policy intention is to prevent modifications that have a negative impact on road safety, vehicle security and the environment.

We do not intend our proposals to:

• prevent legitimate motorsport activities
• prevent restoration, repairs or legitimate improvements to vehicles, such as classic cars or motorbikes
• negatively impact businesses involved in these activities

It's my view that there is nothing there that will stop you remapping for more power, adding a turbo to your MX-5 or installing bigger brakes (legitimate improvement).

What it does do is outlaw decating, DPF delete, pops and bangs, air bag delete (to enable a 3rd party 'racing' wheel install and get an MOT) and other nonsense like that.

 

[Mekrel]

Driving a car in general is not in the interests of general public. You're making it sound like you have a gang of 1.2 fiestas sitting outside your front door red lining their engines. I am 99% sure that is absolutely not the case and you're simply fed up with something that probably happens 5 times a day and lasts 45s combined and want to rant about it. That's fine. Screaming ban this and ban that is not the way to approach it. If you're genuinely sensitive to that noise then yes buying a more expensive property tucked away from busy roads is the way. There's a good reason those houses cost less and that is pollution..noise and air.

What has house property prices got to do with it? There's many variables to that and noise pollution isn't one of them (I know of plenty of desirable and expensive places in Isleworth, under Heathrow flight paths) - schools, transport links, amenities and safety/crime rates are much more important. You seem to be of the incorrect opinion that I live in a poor area? Property prices on this stretch range from 400k for two bedroom flats to 1.6m for a house all of 300m away.

No one has said they aren't utterly ridiculous.
Just that banning all vehicle modification in response, is.

As b0rn2sk8 just posted, the proposed law is around banning the modification of areas that aren't a legitimate improvement.

 

[grudas]

What has house property prices got to do with it? There's many variables to that and noise pollution isn't one of them (I know of plenty of desirable and expensive places in Isleworth, under Heathrow flight paths) - schools, transport links, amenities and safety/crime rates are much more important. You seem to be of the incorrect opinion that I live in a poor area? Property prices on this stretch range from 400k for two bedroom flats to 1.6m for a house all of 300m away.



As b0rn2sk8 just posted, the proposed law is around banning the modification of areas that aren't a legitimate improvement.

Let's agree to disagree. Nowhere did I say they're nice or needed. All I said is that you're blowing this out of proportion..of course your regular 1.6 Ford focus crew will agree with you because they simply don't understand it.

I'm sure you already know that pops and bangs etc are illegal already and clearly those laws like many others are ignored.

I didn't say you live in a poor area? Where did that come from? All I said is that property close to busy/main road is usually cheaper than something that's tucked away and not polluted with noise and other pollution.

 

[Conscript]

It's my view that there is nothing there that will stop you remapping for more power, adding a turbo to your MX-5 or installing bigger brakes (legitimate improvement).

Except it seems that it could be pretty easy for someone to interpret such modifications (more power) as having a "negative impact on the environment" and therefore falling foul of this rule. You said yourself, "my interpretation was very different". I think people are just a bit alarmed by the rather vague intentions at this point.

As b0rn2sk8 just posted, the proposed law is around banning the modification of areas that aren't a legitimate improvement.

...but who defines what's "legitimate"? Presumably it's a legitimate improvement for those installing it, otherwise they wouldn't bother. As I said, there's cars on the market which make these noises without modification. So anyone could justify a pop and bang map as just mimicking the sound of a sportier car and that could be your "legitimate reason". It's all a bit subjective at the moment.

Basically I can see what @grudas is getting at...at the moment it seems like this ruling is vague enough in its wording that it could have unintended impacts on people making pretty harmless mods for fun, and also vague enough that it won't even be effective at stopping the more anti social mods that you want banned. I think it just needs more clarity.

 

[grudas]

Except it seems that it could be pretty easy for someone to interpret such modifications (more power) as having a "negative impact on the environment" and therefore falling foul of this rule. You said yourself, "my interpretation was very different". I think people are just a bit alarmed by the rather vague intentions at this point.



...but who defines what's "legitimate"? Presumably it's a legitimate improvement for those installing it, otherwise they wouldn't bother. As I said, there's cars on the market which make these noises without modification. So anyone could justify a pop and bang map as just mimicking the sound of a sportier car and that could be your "legitimate reason". It's all a bit subjective at the moment.

Basically I can see what @grudas is getting at...at the moment it seems like this ruling is vague enough in its wording that it could have unintended impacts on people making pretty harmless mods for fun, and also vague enough that it won't even be effective at stopping the more anti social mods that you want banned. I think it just needs more clarity.

That's basically it. The proposed law is not explicit enough.

 

[Mekrel]

Let's agree to disagree. Nowhere did I say they're nice or needed. All I said is that you're blowing this out of proportion..of course your regular 1.6 Ford focus crew will agree with you because they simply don't understand it.

I'm sure you already know that pops and bangs etc are illegal already and clearly those laws like many others are ignored.

I didn't say you live in a poor area? Where did that come from? All I said is that property close to busy/main road is usually cheaper than something that's tucked away and not polluted with noise and other pollution.

You implied I needed to move to a more expensive area to have a better quality of living in regard to noise pollution? You don't need to say something explicitly to imply it. What you're saying isn't even a rule of thumb either, I grew up in the Midlands on a council estate and house prices reflected the fact the demand to live there was low because nobody aspired to live there despite the fact it was no where near a noisy road.

I'm not blowing it out of proportion either, I'm simply voicing my opinion about it on a public forum. I still live here and put up with it, but would prefer to not have to put up with it. As for "your Ford focus crew", I would suggest that crew is the majority of drivers who don't feel the need to modify their cars and I'll voice support for laws that benefit the majority of society vs keeping the relative minority happy.

 

[grudas]

You implied I needed to move to a more expensive area to have a better quality of living in regard to noise pollution? You don't need to say something explicitly to imply it. What you're saying isn't even a rule of thumb either, I grew up in the Midlands on a council estate and house prices reflected the fact the demand to live there was low because nobody aspired to live there despite the fact it was no where near a noisy road.

I'm not blowing it out of proportion either, I'm simply voicing my opinion about it on a public forum. I still live here and put up with it, but would prefer to not have to put up with it. As for "your Ford focus crew", I would suggest that crew is the majority of drivers who don't feel the need to modify their cars and I'll voice support for laws that benefit the majority of society vs keeping the relative minority happy.

You got the laws already.. Why is it still an issue?

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Except it seems that it could be pretty easy for someone to interpret such modifications (more power) as having a "negative impact on the environment" and therefore falling foul of this rule. You said yourself, "my interpretation was very different". I think people are just a bit alarmed by the rather vague intentions at this point.

Only if you start ignoring other parts of the policy intent as it’s set out in the paper. Since when does a normal remap ‘bypass, defeat, reduce the effectiveness of or render inoperative a system, part or component’ unless you also ask them to DPF delete or de-cat etc. it doesn’t.

It’s a consultation and the intentions are really not that vague if you actually read it. But that’s the internet where nuance logic has been sidelined in favour of outrage and hyperbole.

...but who defines what's "legitimate"? Presumably it's a legitimate improvement for those installing it, otherwise they wouldn't bother.

Well given they are not going to be able to make a definitive list of potentially unlawful modifications or lawful modifications I’d guess a judge. ‘Legitimate’ means to be able to be defended with logic or justification.

As I said, there's cars on the market which make these noises without modification. So anyone could justify a pop and bang map as just mimicking the sound of a sportier car and that could be your "legitimate reason". It's all a bit subjective at the moment.

Id love to see you arguing that installing a pops and bangs map is a legitimate improvement with logic or justification. That’s properly clutching at straws.

No car that naturally pops and bangs does so going through traffic calming measures at 20mph like a Gary boys modded 1.0l Leon unless it’s being driven like a complete **** and they are nothing like the volume.

Basically I can see what @grudas is getting at...at the moment it seems like this ruling is vague enough in its wording that it could have unintended impacts on people making pretty harmless mods for fun, and also vague enough that it won't even be effective at stopping the more anti social mods that you want banned. I think it just needs more clarity.

That's basically it. The proposed law is not explicit enough.

It isn’t a law. Its a public consultation, the idea is that you respond to the consultation and those views then considered. The whole point of a consultation is to gather evidence and feedback.

If it does become law, what you aren’t going to see is a defined list of modifications which will be outlawed. That’s because this kind of stuff moves far quicker than legislation ever can. It’s always going to be based on principles to keep to even remotely relevant as time passes. For example DPFs have only been a thing since 2009.

 

[Conscript]

Id love to see you arguing that installing a pops and bangs map is a legitimate improvement with logic or justification. That’s properly clutching at straws.

EDIT: I typed out a long response to this, posted it, read it back, and realised that it wasn't worded very well and probably didn't make much sense. So I'll remove the post and humbly bow out for now...not really my intention to be too argumentative over this especially as I'm not actually all that outraged by it personally