Soldato
lol actually released after i posted! a lot of `maybe, could, possibly` though and with the same caveat as the video i posted; most miners undervolt and keep the kit clean, but some dont.
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GPU Miners : The cost of honesty
- Thread starter Alan McFall
- Start date
lol actually released after i posted! a lot of `maybe, could, possibly` though and with the same caveat as the video i posted; most miners undervolt and keep the kit clean, but some dont.
Soldato
- Joined
- 30 Nov 2011
- Posts
- 11,376
Black gunk will probably be from vaping, and I would be more worried about that than mining tbh.
Soldato
was vaping a big thing back then ?
Soldato
Vype has been `around` since 2013, Juul since 2015 ; market has doubled in the last 5 years. Its not really a `new thing`
Soldato
Its possible then the 290 was out in 2013.
Soldato
I would not buy a mining card. Or, in other words, one that has been used for mining on.
I will do my best to explain why, and use prior experience.
Firstly when mining your GPU will run 100% flat out. There are no periods like in a game where the card gets a rest. IE, loading, new levels, cut scenes etc. It's 100% balls to the wall.
This may not sound so bad. However, the components in them (VRM, capacitors and etc) were not designed for this. This is just the start too. Like, on a card like a Quadro or Tesla ETC? they are made to be ran flat out. Better quality components, etc. However, you will note that on *a lot* of those cards they have no fans. And this is where it all gets a bit sketch. Firstly most GPUs run thin, crappy plastic fans. Flimsy, tiny motors and etc. They are not like Corsair's mag lev, or Noctua's with the huge motors on. They are just crap thin plastic fans. These too are not made nor designed to be ran 100% flat out 24/7. At all. So, over the coming months to years the fans are already out of their guaranteed operating time. As basically they are not supposed to be 100% for a year at a time.
So what else is bad about mining? heat. Heat and, what comes with it. Most of these cards that will appear for sale on sites will have been in a warehouse running flat out. And the heat output is absolutely insane. They use hoses to spray down the floors to cool the building they are in. Meaning what comes with the heat - humidity. One sure fire way to destroy hardware. I had a buddy out in Taiwan and he said he had never managed to keep a GPU running for the length of the warranty due to the heat and humidity. Parts of the card would literally rust.
Now obviously a "small time" miner would not have these problems but there are still heat/humidity issues.
I have owned two ex mining cards. One was an Nvidia, just a lower end card. It was covered in what looked like salt or flux. I have a pretty good idea it never looked like that. Any way, it lasted about two months before dying.
The second card I bought that had been mining was a Powercolor Red Devil Vega 64. On the surface it looked fine. However, it could not even do stock clocks without crashing. Not only that it got hot fast, and even after re pasting it it was still a dog. Again, I would not imagine it arrived new like that. It also whined. Mostly because the coils had obviously loosened far more due to being hammered on 24/7. I really don't have much good to say about that card, apart from what I paid for it. £220. However, at that price it really performed right around about what I had spent. So I didn't care, as it was not in my main PC and I didn't game on it that much.
However, don't blindly think that mining cards are worth buying. Unless, IMO? you pick it up so cheap that it could die tomorrow and you wouldn't care. Anything more? is a big risk. None of them will have warranty because in a lot of cases they have been on a hacked BIOS (and the manu will know) and secondly, OEMs will know why these cards are being RMA so will get all argumentative with you any way.
What just hammers this home is that since its inception I have followed the folding scene quite avidly. Note - followed. The reason is? it kills hardware and I have never been in a position to have enough money to take that risk.
So just be careful. Thing is? when mining does stop (have a look on the local auction site today for a 3060 and 3060ti, the place is absolutely flooded with them) GPUs will be worth next to nothing, because 90% of a two+ year supply will all hit the second hand market at once. Killing stone dead any chance of a shop to sell you a new one at the inflated prices they are at right now.
And I am beginning to see signs of it. Just lately we've had about 5 3060tis offered up for sale on another forum I go on (£600, LOL). and today a 3070 came up. Which all seems to coincide with this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXIY4s7gIBk
I will do my best to explain why, and use prior experience.
Firstly when mining your GPU will run 100% flat out. There are no periods like in a game where the card gets a rest. IE, loading, new levels, cut scenes etc. It's 100% balls to the wall.
This may not sound so bad. However, the components in them (VRM, capacitors and etc) were not designed for this. This is just the start too. Like, on a card like a Quadro or Tesla ETC? they are made to be ran flat out. Better quality components, etc. However, you will note that on *a lot* of those cards they have no fans. And this is where it all gets a bit sketch. Firstly most GPUs run thin, crappy plastic fans. Flimsy, tiny motors and etc. They are not like Corsair's mag lev, or Noctua's with the huge motors on. They are just crap thin plastic fans. These too are not made nor designed to be ran 100% flat out 24/7. At all. So, over the coming months to years the fans are already out of their guaranteed operating time. As basically they are not supposed to be 100% for a year at a time.
So what else is bad about mining? heat. Heat and, what comes with it. Most of these cards that will appear for sale on sites will have been in a warehouse running flat out. And the heat output is absolutely insane. They use hoses to spray down the floors to cool the building they are in. Meaning what comes with the heat - humidity. One sure fire way to destroy hardware. I had a buddy out in Taiwan and he said he had never managed to keep a GPU running for the length of the warranty due to the heat and humidity. Parts of the card would literally rust.
Now obviously a "small time" miner would not have these problems but there are still heat/humidity issues.
I have owned two ex mining cards. One was an Nvidia, just a lower end card. It was covered in what looked like salt or flux. I have a pretty good idea it never looked like that. Any way, it lasted about two months before dying.
The second card I bought that had been mining was a Powercolor Red Devil Vega 64. On the surface it looked fine. However, it could not even do stock clocks without crashing. Not only that it got hot fast, and even after re pasting it it was still a dog. Again, I would not imagine it arrived new like that. It also whined. Mostly because the coils had obviously loosened far more due to being hammered on 24/7. I really don't have much good to say about that card, apart from what I paid for it. £220. However, at that price it really performed right around about what I had spent. So I didn't care, as it was not in my main PC and I didn't game on it that much.
However, don't blindly think that mining cards are worth buying. Unless, IMO? you pick it up so cheap that it could die tomorrow and you wouldn't care. Anything more? is a big risk. None of them will have warranty because in a lot of cases they have been on a hacked BIOS (and the manu will know) and secondly, OEMs will know why these cards are being RMA so will get all argumentative with you any way.
What just hammers this home is that since its inception I have followed the folding scene quite avidly. Note - followed. The reason is? it kills hardware and I have never been in a position to have enough money to take that risk.
So just be careful. Thing is? when mining does stop (have a look on the local auction site today for a 3060 and 3060ti, the place is absolutely flooded with them) GPUs will be worth next to nothing, because 90% of a two+ year supply will all hit the second hand market at once. Killing stone dead any chance of a shop to sell you a new one at the inflated prices they are at right now.
And I am beginning to see signs of it. Just lately we've had about 5 3060tis offered up for sale on another forum I go on (£600, LOL). and today a 3070 came up. Which all seems to coincide with this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXIY4s7gIBk
Soldato
None of the above is true. Miners `tune` cards for lowest possible out of thermals and lowest power draw; take a 5700XT, the ram is run at 1800 but the core is as low as 1200 on 850mv drawing 110watts. Thats how they are run, 24/7. Not the same as folding @ home which uses the core, mining pretty much just uses ram.
Soldato
None of the above is true. That's extremely dismissive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AJhJKSx_70
Watch the video. Take note - I am talking about serious operations here, which is where most of the cards have gone. Maybe some person at home running 8 GPUs? would do it differently. However, the bulk of what you will be buying second hand when it all crashes down will be GPUs from farms. And you will have no idea where they came from.
Are you disagreeing with my dead 970 and borked Vega 64 too dude? those were mined on, not folded. At least the sellers had the honesty to tell me which is why I offered and paid what I did.
Soldato
I ask you to watch
DON'T Buy a Used Mining GPU! - $h!t Manufacturers Say - YouTube
in a counter argument to your own video (sources in the LTT video aas well from a serious gpu miner).
Im not saying you didnt have issues, but there are strong arguements on boths sides of the conversation about mining and gpu`s
DON'T Buy a Used Mining GPU! - $h!t Manufacturers Say - YouTube
in a counter argument to your own video (sources in the LTT video aas well from a serious gpu miner).
Im not saying you didnt have issues, but there are strong arguements on boths sides of the conversation about mining and gpu`s
Soldato
Well maybe "none of the above is true" was a good way to start the post then.
I watched that Linus video when it went up and tbh? it hasn't done much to change my mind. Especially because he is pro miner. He does it himself. Meaning he is not about to shoot himself in the foot.
If you read through what I said above you will notice me mention life span of products. IE, a sleeved bearing fan. Which if you look into it brings up the following.
The MTBF for most computer fans is listed between 30,000 and 50,000 hours or, 3.5 - 6 years continual running. Then go back to the video I posted and note, that setup already had over 15000 hours on it. Also, take note that computer fans are not the same as GPU fans. Which are usually smaller, thinner and nowhere near as substantial. That said, even a fan dying is a ball ache enough. Mostly because absolutely no one who makes GPUs will sell you spares. No one. Not EVGA, MSI, etc etc. They all just bark "SEND IT BACK RMA" if a fan dies. Which then leaves you trying to find a compatible fan which will mean you will have to cut the wires out and solder in the replacement, as usually GPUs have two or three fans daisy chained together. None of this is ideal, and especially because the exact type of fan you usually need is not available (IE, no PWM meaning 100% at all times.
And that is just the fans. Not even going into the lifetime of a VRM or a choke, or, the memory. Which too has a RW life cycle.
Whether there are other sides to this? not to me. I would not want a GPU that has been mined on at all. Mostly because the two I had? had glaring issues. You also forego any warranty whatsoever. This may be fine in the case of say, a £100 3050 or something but £1200 and above for a high end card? yeah, thanks but no thanks.
I watched that Linus video when it went up and tbh? it hasn't done much to change my mind. Especially because he is pro miner. He does it himself. Meaning he is not about to shoot himself in the foot.
If you read through what I said above you will notice me mention life span of products. IE, a sleeved bearing fan. Which if you look into it brings up the following.
The MTBF for most computer fans is listed between 30,000 and 50,000 hours or, 3.5 - 6 years continual running. Then go back to the video I posted and note, that setup already had over 15000 hours on it. Also, take note that computer fans are not the same as GPU fans. Which are usually smaller, thinner and nowhere near as substantial. That said, even a fan dying is a ball ache enough. Mostly because absolutely no one who makes GPUs will sell you spares. No one. Not EVGA, MSI, etc etc. They all just bark "SEND IT BACK RMA" if a fan dies. Which then leaves you trying to find a compatible fan which will mean you will have to cut the wires out and solder in the replacement, as usually GPUs have two or three fans daisy chained together. None of this is ideal, and especially because the exact type of fan you usually need is not available (IE, no PWM meaning 100% at all times.
And that is just the fans. Not even going into the lifetime of a VRM or a choke, or, the memory. Which too has a RW life cycle.
Whether there are other sides to this? not to me. I would not want a GPU that has been mined on at all. Mostly because the two I had? had glaring issues. You also forego any warranty whatsoever. This may be fine in the case of say, a £100 3050 or something but £1200 and above for a high end card? yeah, thanks but no thanks.
Soldato
Has anyone ever actually had a warranty voided because their card was mined on?
Lots of people claim that:
A) mining kills cards
B) mining voids your warranty
If the above were both true then the internet would be full of people complaining that their card died after x months and the manufacturer refused the warranty, but there aren't any of these complaints... Funny that
Regarding your claim that the cards run excessively hot and are cooled by spraying the floor around them with water... Just no. Like anyone with an ounce of common sense is going to be spraying water around the tens of thousands of $ worth of sensitive electronics which generates their income stream
Incidentally, my card runs ~15-20c cooler when mining than at peak when gaming, and no constant cold-hot-cold-hot heat cycles causing physical stress of components and solder joints due to thermal expansion/contraction.
I agree with your point about fan bearings wearing out though, so my answer to the OP would be "whatever the cost would be to replace the fans if/when they fail"
Soldato
Most people who mine do not talk about it. At least not on here. Let alone coming on here and saying "Hey I killed my GPU mining. Should I return it to OCUK for a RMA?". That's a question nobody would ever be daft enough to ask.
As for the spraying of water? the video was posted on here about 3 years ago. It showed a warehouse in Singapore/Malaysia and the only way they could bring temps down was to introduce cold water to the floor to increase the humidity. I don't care if you believe that or not. Sure, it may not be a practice used here (the U.S does their crypo mining in places like Canada and Alaska).
Warranty.
https://www.pcgamer.com/uk/cryptocu...graphics-card-warranties-in-some-territories/
Believe me when I say, if an OEM catches the fact you've been mining (and apparently there are ways for them to tell) you won't get a warranty. Even the headless mining cards Nvidia introduced only came with a 90 day warranty. I would be very interested to see what they had to say if you reached out to them and asked.
Replacing the fans can actually be impossible. I broke a fan on my GTX 480 Lightning and found out it was around 95mm. I contacted MSI, who told me they don't make spares of any parts. Nor would they supply them. And, I even went so far as to contacting their warehouse in NL and they told me the same. So I was forced to use 80mm fans which didn't do the job. Because they were completely wrong. Nearly all high end cards usually come with fans you can't replace, as they are either built into the shroud itself or just plain oddball (like the middle one on the Aorus Xtreme). You can't put a fan in there, other than the one it comes with. The blades would smash into each other.
However, as I mentioned before - it's not just the fans that have a finite lifetime. Every component on the card does. The warranty usually lasts for about as long as a manufacturer's worst case scenario. Which, in the EU is two years. God knows what the UK will decide on (about five minutes knowing this country). Obviously the better the power circuitry the longer it would last being used in that way. However, people don't see it that way when mining. It's pretty much anything goes so long as it's profitable.
My point remains the same. If I were offered a car that had been taken care of and driven gently or one that had been thrashed I would take the first option. Thing is, when mining dies (if it totally dies) and the second hand market becomes so bloated that even those don't sell there is no way in hell any of the board partners will get away with charging what they are charging now. Which, IMO, is the reason why they are scalping and gouging now. Because when mining clacks it they won't be able to sell cards as the market will be absolutely flooded with them. This is off the back of something I read the other day about how Nvidia have sold more Ampere cards than any other. And obviously a huge percentage of those are not in the hands of gamers. Even after two years people on here are still either waiting on and order, or trying.
As said, maybe I would buy a mining card if it were dirt cheap. Like, totally dirt cheap.
As for the spraying of water? the video was posted on here about 3 years ago. It showed a warehouse in Singapore/Malaysia and the only way they could bring temps down was to introduce cold water to the floor to increase the humidity. I don't care if you believe that or not. Sure, it may not be a practice used here (the U.S does their crypo mining in places like Canada and Alaska).
Warranty.
https://www.pcgamer.com/uk/cryptocu...graphics-card-warranties-in-some-territories/
Believe me when I say, if an OEM catches the fact you've been mining (and apparently there are ways for them to tell) you won't get a warranty. Even the headless mining cards Nvidia introduced only came with a 90 day warranty. I would be very interested to see what they had to say if you reached out to them and asked.
Replacing the fans can actually be impossible. I broke a fan on my GTX 480 Lightning and found out it was around 95mm. I contacted MSI, who told me they don't make spares of any parts. Nor would they supply them. And, I even went so far as to contacting their warehouse in NL and they told me the same. So I was forced to use 80mm fans which didn't do the job. Because they were completely wrong. Nearly all high end cards usually come with fans you can't replace, as they are either built into the shroud itself or just plain oddball (like the middle one on the Aorus Xtreme). You can't put a fan in there, other than the one it comes with. The blades would smash into each other.
However, as I mentioned before - it's not just the fans that have a finite lifetime. Every component on the card does. The warranty usually lasts for about as long as a manufacturer's worst case scenario. Which, in the EU is two years. God knows what the UK will decide on (about five minutes knowing this country). Obviously the better the power circuitry the longer it would last being used in that way. However, people don't see it that way when mining. It's pretty much anything goes so long as it's profitable.
My point remains the same. If I were offered a car that had been taken care of and driven gently or one that had been thrashed I would take the first option. Thing is, when mining dies (if it totally dies) and the second hand market becomes so bloated that even those don't sell there is no way in hell any of the board partners will get away with charging what they are charging now. Which, IMO, is the reason why they are scalping and gouging now. Because when mining clacks it they won't be able to sell cards as the market will be absolutely flooded with them. This is off the back of something I read the other day about how Nvidia have sold more Ampere cards than any other. And obviously a huge percentage of those are not in the hands of gamers. Even after two years people on here are still either waiting on and order, or trying.
As said, maybe I would buy a mining card if it were dirt cheap. Like, totally dirt cheap.
Soldato
Nonsense. There's literally a whole sub-forum dedicated to it.
Actually I've seen quite a few people posting that. Only for it to come out that they've somehow modified the card, or damaged it in the process. Guess who else modifies their cards? Gamers - and they would get their warranty refused for exactly the same reason.
Would be interested to see that video, as I do find it very hard to believe.
So... a single manufacturer for a limited number of products in a single country due to local regulations. That's not quite the same as "no card will have a warranty if it has been mined on".
As far as I'm aware (happy to proven wrong), no GPU manufacturer explicitly states in their warranty that it will be void if you tell them you've been using it for mining (and no, there aren't "ways for them to tell", despite what they may want you to think
)I'm sure it differs between cards, but a 10 second search on AliExpress shows I can get a new set of fans for my card for £12 - certainly not the end of the world
Absolutely, but heat & heat cycling kills electronics far more than constant use at a cool temperature
An interesting analogy to choose, considering most people will agree that (all else being equal), a high mileage car which has done most of it's miles at a constant speed on the motorway (e.g. mining), is likely to have suffered less wear and tear than a low mileage one which has spent its life doing short journeys, constantly accelerating and braking in start stop traffic around town.
Where I agree with you is that it's hard to differentiate the miner who doesn't look after their card vs the one who does. However, that's not a problem specific to miners, and you'll also get the gamers who stick their card in a tiny case with no ventilation and overclock it to within an inch of its life. Arguably mining in poor conditions 24/7 will kill a card quicker than gaming on it in poor conditions for a few hours a day, however - personally - I'd rather buy a card which has been mined on at <65c 24/7 than one gamed on at >100c 5-6 hours/day
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Associate
- Joined
- 4 Nov 2015
- Posts
- 250
Bear in mind my view on warranty and mining cards is not related to the mining causing the damage. Graphics cards break in all sorts of ways and it may not be the mining history on your card that breaks it. It may be something else entirely. Either way you'll have a much better chance if you bought the card yourself, brand new. Having to go through a potentially uncooperative third party, or to be faced with a company that won't entertain second-hand warranties, is to me a risk that doesn't justify the often four-figure cost for a card.
When i buy second hand GPU, i go with the assumption that it had been mined on. given the nature, it is impossible to think that a GPU hasn't been mined on.
i have a few GPUs now and mining, in the expereince of buying off market places face to face, probably 1 or 2 people i would say for sure are not miner, like even casual miner.
most i would suspect have mined on their GPUs. does that put me off, no not really.
I know the OC for the card concerned, so when i test it (which is at the point of purchase), i run 3D mark with stock setting then i will OC core (reasonably) and mem to max and see what happens. if there are issues with graphics then it is a sign that card is on its last leg. similarly do a furmark run for 10min see where the final temp is. if a card i expect to run hot and doesn't then it has been modded for mining.
also most cards i get, i come home give them a good clean and replace pads and thermal paste anyway.
i have a few GPUs now and mining, in the expereince of buying off market places face to face, probably 1 or 2 people i would say for sure are not miner, like even casual miner.
most i would suspect have mined on their GPUs. does that put me off, no not really.
I know the OC for the card concerned, so when i test it (which is at the point of purchase), i run 3D mark with stock setting then i will OC core (reasonably) and mem to max and see what happens. if there are issues with graphics then it is a sign that card is on its last leg. similarly do a furmark run for 10min see where the final temp is. if a card i expect to run hot and doesn't then it has been modded for mining.
also most cards i get, i come home give them a good clean and replace pads and thermal paste anyway.
This is completely false, it's obvious you have very little knowledge of how GPU mining works. Why are you pretending like you know what you're talking about?
The goal of a GPU miner is NOT to get the maximum possible hashrate. If the GPU were their only cost then perhaps, but the cost of the hardware is insignificant compared to the electricity costs. Therefore miners are looking to maximise their hashrate per watt. Most cards achieve maximum efficiency (i.e. hashrate per watt) when underclocked and undervolted to about 70-80% of standard factory clocks/volts, while the monitoring software might report "100% GPU usage" the card is actually not being pushed very hard at all.
There are genuine reasons one might want to avoid buying a used mining GPU, but this is certainly not one of them.
This error pretty much undermines every other point you made. At this stage I have to recommend that other forum users disregard everything you've said in this thread.
And for the record, I do not mine any crypto on my cards nor have I ever done so.
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Caporegime
Things you love to see, ALXAndy getting one tapped.
Soldato
They have.
Caporegime
The Memory architecture is the most fragile thing on GPU's.
Used RTX 2070 Super's are currently going for £500 to £600 on FleaBay
If you were to ask me if i was happy to pay even £300 for one that's had its IMC and Momory IC's running flatout for 2 years solid i would say i'll take a punt on it for £50.
Used RTX 2070 Super's are currently going for £500 to £600 on FleaBay
If you were to ask me if i was happy to pay even £300 for one that's had its IMC and Momory IC's running flatout for 2 years solid i would say i'll take a punt on it for £50.