Is Lewis Hamilton the GOAT (this thread is about Lewis as an F1 driver, not anything else)?

[Rroff]

When it comes to ability to hone getting a car around a track there are few who can match him - doesn't really matter the vehicle or track or era - if you compare onboard footage of any driver on their best day (at just getting a car around a track in an optimal and precise manner) few are in the same league as Hamilton. He generally has great consistency in his performance - there are some drivers who've done incredible drives but been unable to maintain performance anything like that level. Race management/game strategy and aspects like dealing with traffic he has times of brilliance but I'd argue there are other drivers as good or even more consistently good. Sportsmanship I think is just as important, while winning stuff like F1 generally requires some quite cut throat instincts there are also times when those can take second place - I find him more so-so in that respect.

Those are aspects I think you can compare over eras and so on but I don't know my F1 history well enough to break it down further than that - but I certainly don't think there are many who can compare when you combined points in all those areas.

 

[bayo000]

Is he the GOAT? It's so hard to compare drivers from different eras, but he certainly has most of the stats on his side to support the claim.

Is he one of the GOAT? Undoubtedly. He's up there with other F1 legends like Schumacher, Senna and Fangio.

Pretty much this though stats are meaningless imo. Modern F1 seasons are two to three times as long as F1 seasons back in 50s - 70s so those drivers never had the opportunity to get those numbers. He's also enjoyed having the best car for majority of his titles and race wins, as far as I know at no other time in history of F1 there was another team that had such a dominant car for that long.

 

[Feek]

as far as I know at no other time in history of F1 there was another team that had such a dominant car for that long.

Williams and McLaren pretty much walked away with everything between them from 1980 to 1998 with just a couple of exceptions then Ferrari did it for six years on the trot.

 

[jaybee]

He is the GOAT to me and a lot of people. It's not just the statistics and achievements but his race craft. His background story couldn't be more fairy tale with the interview where he says he'd like to drive for Mclaren in F1 one day, and then coming up from his roots with his Dad to where his is now just adds to it. Some of his drives and come backs from the back of the grid in multiple classes (not just F1) have been incomparable to other drivers. It's not his fault he is driving in an modern era, and I don't think he should be thought of as any less just because the cars are safer these days as you can still die in F1 tomorrow.

His tyre management and ability to extract performance under pressure is the best of the best. There's no point really talking about stats as he's winning there. He's had a long, healthy career and been pretty much always at the top for a very long time. When he came in against Alonso he gave 110% ballsy performances and was always exciting to watch. He also has an impeccable history of being a clean racer as well, which I think is what will always place him above Schumacher (as much as I respect him as well) and drivers like Max Verstappen. Lewis has never had to be the bully, and has generally let speed do the talking.

Watch the media talk him down and toxic trolls online refer to him being at the top due to his car now he's a bit down this season so far.

 

[jaybee]

....as far as I know at no other time in history of F1 there was another team that had such a dominant car for that long.

People seem to have short memories. A lot think of Schumi as the greatest but he won 5 in a row with Ferarri because...shock horror... they were the dominant team for 5 years in a row.
Same with Redbull and Seb getting 4 in a row.
Merc have 7 in a row but shared.
Mclaren and Williams dominated the 80s and 90s overall.

Schumi won with Benetton too before Ferrari so fair play, but then so did Hamilton in the Mclaren. The best drivers tend to drive for the best teams. The argument that he has had it easy should mean that the greats like Senna had it easy too since they were in the best machinery. It's a weak argument.

 

[bayo000]

People seem to have short memories. A lot think of Schumi as the greatest but he won 5 in a row with Ferarri because...shock horror... they were the dominant team for 5 years in a row.
Same with Redbull and Seb getting 4 in a row.
Merc have 7 in a row but shared.
Mclaren and Williams dominated the 80s and 90s overall.

Schumi won with Benetton too before Ferrari so fair play, but then so did Hamilton in the Mclaren. The best drivers tend to drive for the best teams. The argument that he has had it easy should mean that the greats like Senna had it easy too since they were in the best machinery. It's a weak argument.

Merc have 8 constructor titles in a row, so he had the best car for last 8 years. All I'm saying is that no other team or driver enjoyed that sort of benefit so using some stats it's a bit pointless.

You're welcome to your opinion that he's the GOAT, personally considering how much F1 changed over the years I don't think it's fair for making this sort of comparison between the drivers. Lot of good drivers died or had their careers ruined in accidents that current drivers walk away from without a scratch.

 

[jaybee]

Merc have 8 constructor titles in a row, so he had the best car for last 8 years. All I'm saying is that no other team or driver enjoyed that sort of benefit so using some stats it's a bit pointless.

You're welcome to your opinion that he's the GOAT, personally considering how much F1 changed over the years I don't think it's fair for making this sort of comparison between the drivers. Lot of good drivers died or had their careers ruined in accidents that current drivers walk away from without a scratch.

It's not really a good basis for argument though is it, that other people could/would have been better if they hadn't died or injured themselves.

I'm not hearing any real arguments for other names to be offered up as the GOAT for comparison to Lewis.

 

[mattyg]

You cant really compare, Stick the cigarette smoking James hunt in a modern F1 car and he'll not last 2 laps. Equally stick a the safety conscious modern day F1 driver in a 70's car and tell him to go race....(against Max)

But LH is one of them for sure

 

[Malt_Vinegar]

It's not really a good basis for argument though is it, that other people could/would have been better if they hadn't died or injured themselves.

I'm not hearing any real arguments for other names to be offered up as the GOAT for comparison to Lewis.

Except where I said Jim Clark, and stated my reasons.

 

[Deleted member 651465]

I personally wouldn’t bother trying to compare drivers from different eras.

Mansell was great at wringing the neck of a car but that style wouldn’t work now (unless you wanted the tyre life to be even worse ), likewise there were seasons in the 90s where there was an obscene amount of talent on the grid which made some world champions look “ordinary”.

1991-1994 for instance had;

Senna
Prost
Mansell
Piquet
Hakkinen
Schumacher
Hill

If you’re only talking 2000+ era cars then Schumacher and Lewis are really your only real options. Honourable mention for Seb but it’s the consistency that tips it toward Lewis for me.

He’s won a race in every season that he’s raced. Not looking likely this year mind but I’ve thought that in the past too and been proven wrong.

 

[chrismscotland]

I think its impossible to compare across different era's really he's certainly the best of his era but personally I think what Michael Schumacher did at Ferrari was more impressive - he not only won multiple championships but basically built a team and brought Ferrari back into contention in a way it hadn't been since since the 80's.
He also had the ability (in his first stint) to wring every bit out of pretty average cars, something that many of the newer crop have never really had to do - Vettel won 4 titles with a Red Bull that was class of the field, Hamilton has never really been in a car in his Merc days that wasn't the best (well until now).

As for the current era I'd probably have Alonso up there as Hamilton's closest match; if he had another couple of titles I think he would be held in even higher regard but he's always made poor career moves!

 

[Jono8]

I think its impossible to compare across different era's really he's certainly the best of his era but personally I think what Michael Schumacher did at Ferrari was more impressive - he not only won multiple championships but basically built a team and brought Ferrari back into contention in a way it hadn't been since since the 80's.
He also had the ability (in his first stint) to wring every bit out of pretty average cars, something that many of the newer crop have never really had to do - Vettel won 4 titles with a Red Bull that was class of the field, Hamilton has never really been in a car in his Merc days that wasn't the best (well until now).

Not so sure about that. The Merc definitely was not the out and out fastest car last year. In fact some would argue it was actually second to the Red Bull.

However, how he handled the last 4 or so races , coming from behind, under intense pressure from Max, and did not put a foot wrong and did everything he needed to do to win the championship was incredible. A championship that was deservedly his and that he would have won were it not for the race director plucking rules from his ****. Max looked like an amateur in those last few races in comparison, and Jeddah especially showed him up for who he is when everything is on the line. Binned it in qualy and made a total embarrassment of himself in the race with his antics.

 

[the wopster]

Absolutely the GOAT, no question about it

 

[this_is_gav]

I'm going to completely pull apart most stats with the exception of championships. Race wins and poles are completely incomparable. In the first two decades of racing there were an average of just 8.6 races per season - far below the 23 race calendar we're scheduled to have this season or the average of 19.3 races per season across Hamilton's F1 career.

For example if Hamilton's career thus far was instead between 1950 and 1964 and he was equally as successful his total wins would amount to 42. Still great, but obviously such a career length was unknown at the time as you were extremely likely to suffer a career ending injury or worse back then. Indeed of those who started the first race (British GP in 1950) Fangio had the longest career at 8 seasons, and the average F1 racing career was a measly 12.8 races (yes, 12.8 RACES!). Consider that Hamilton has 290 races under his belt when considering using stats to try comparing drivers! Indeed Hamilton has more race starts himself than the entire grid of that first race did in their entire career combined!

Another way to show how easily stats can be skewed is that Verstappen is already 7th in the list of all-time points scored. Even by adjusted points scored (so all drivers using the current points system) he's only just 175 short of the top 10 and will almost certainly get that this season. The only drivers on that adjusted list not to drive in the hybrid era are Schumacher, Prost and Senna.

Fangio, who has the best wins:GP ratio and the best adjusted points:races ratio of all time isn't even close to making that adjusted total points list above - indeed he's 40th in the list, just ahead of Jarno Trulli, and behind the likes of Alesi and Perez!

GOAT of hybrid for sure, but outside that it’s hard to compare back over multiple decades and eras.

Definitely, so far anyway. Verstappen is on target to beat him statistically, but it's hard to imagine he'll have such a dominant car for so long - of course I'm not saying Hamilton's status is down to the car, but if you're to break such records you need the best car for prolonged periods too.

You could argue the same case for Senna, Schumacher, Clark, Fangio and so on. All of them had the best, or one of the best cars, at some point. I'd argue Senna and Schumacher (in my life) made more giant-killing drives more than Hamilton (in lesser machinery), but then the car is more of a factor now than then. Schumacher dragging that Ferrari into title battles against Villeneuve and Hakkinen in particular in 1998 was something else (I still regard Hungary 1998 as the best dry race performance I've seen), as was Alonso's challenge in that dog of a Ferrari in 2012. Senna obviously got a lot of poles and good races against far stronger cars before he moved to McLaren.

While he's definitely one of the greats of all time, the only thing that niggles me with Hamilton is his lack of diversity (ironically) in that most other drivers (including recent or current drivers like Schumacher, Vettel and Alonso), have all tried and succeeded in some form or other at other motorsport disciplines (Indycar, Le Mans/GTP, touring cars, Race of Champions and so on). Hamilton hasn't shown any interest in any of them, and while I think he'd be good at least one of them, it's the main thing that would stop me considering him as THE greatest of all time in my own hypothetical ranking. That's why Jim Clark would top my list, as he won in every one of the many disciplines he ever entered, as well as being the greatest grand prix driver in my opinion.

Silverstone 2008… lapping 1-2s faster than anyone else in the wet. Finished a MINUTE ahead of second place.

The only thing about that race is that the guys who were 2nd (Heidfeld) and 3rd (Barrichello, in the second worst car in the field) finished exactly the same distance behind the leaders in multiple other races that year, including the previous race in Magny-Cours. It was an excellent drive, but I think it said as much about Kovalainen and the longer wheel base Ferrari car as it did Hamilton.

 

[Irish_Tom]

Highlights for me;

Silverstone 2008… lapping 1-2s faster than anyone else in the wet. Finished a MINUTE ahead of second place.

Bahrain 2014… racing Rosberg who was using forbidden engine modes. A great scrap and one which showed how far ahead Merc were in the turbo hybrid era.

Monaco 2019… Pulled out a staggering 67 laps on the medium tyre and iirc he was on the radio after lap 30 complaining they were “done”. Nursing the tyres and making the strategy work to perfection.

Brazil 2021… coming from the back of the sprint race and outside the top 10 for the actual race to win. Incredible.

I’d like to add Silverstone 2020 to that list — winning the race on three wheels.

 

[jaybee]

I think its impossible to compare across different era's really he's certainly the best of his era but personally I think what Michael Schumacher did at Ferrari was more impressive - he not only won multiple championships but basically built a team and brought Ferrari back into contention in a way it hadn't been since since the 80's.
He also had the ability (in his first stint) to wring every bit out of pretty average cars, something that many of the newer crop have never really had to do - Vettel won 4 titles with a Red Bull that was class of the field, Hamilton has never really been in a car in his Merc days that wasn't the best (well until now).

As for the current era I'd probably have Alonso up there as Hamilton's closest match; if he had another couple of titles I think he would be held in even higher regard but he's always made poor career moves!

There's no denying Schumi was a god behind the wheel but let's remember how dominant the Ferrari was. I remember watching races where Brundle would pretty much be laughing at how Ferrari toyed with their opponents in quali and sometimes would turn the car up and beat some of the weaker people by 3 or 4 seconds over a lap such was the margin.

 

[Bazzards]

As others have suggested, I dont believe he is the "GOAT", however he is certainly one of them.

 

[dave28]

GOAT team and cars had Lewis driving them. If that makes him the GOAT then yes he is

 

[this_is_gav]

There's no denying Schumi was a god behind the wheel but let's remember how dominant the Ferrari was. I remember watching races where Brundle would pretty much be laughing at how Ferrari toyed with their opponents in quali and sometimes would turn the car up and beat some of the weaker people by 3 or 4 seconds over a lap such was the margin.

He had some dominant years at Ferrari, notably 2002 and 2004 (and 1995 at Benetton), but I think it the years he didn't win which stood out as his most impressive and set him apart from other drivers of the time.

He had no business winning three races and third in the championship in the F310 (or finishing second, just 16 seconds behind, with one completely locked wheel in Imola), challenging Villeneuve and Hakkinen in 1997 and 1998 respectively when he was up against far better cars, and then his return in 1999 when he went and stuck it on pole by a second, then toying with the other cars in the race, faster on a 1-stop than they were on a 2-stop, barely able to drive slow enough to try to move Hakkinen backwards in to the mid-field.

The only question mark with Schumacher was the strength of his teammates. He ended the career of a three-time champion teammate in his first five races, then had a series of midfielders as teammates. Barrichello was the best (much under-rated at the time I felt, but he looking back he was never going to be a championship-level driver) and finished with Massa getting near his pace, though not his consistency in his final year (I'm disregarding the comeback). Massa went on to have a great year himself in 2008, but at that stage I don't think many thought of him as much of an upgrade on any of Schumacher's other teammates - he was never the same after his injury in 2009, but most felt he wouldn't get another shot at the title after a brilliant 2008, which made his that decider and his stoicism on the podium all the more heart breaking.

Would Schumacher have beaten the rest of the grid if they had the same machinery across those Benetton and Ferrari years? Almost certainly yes in my opinion (Senna excepted perhaps, had he lived), but that, like most of this thread, can only be opinion.

 

[this_is_gav]

GOAT team and cars had Lewis driving them. If that makes him the GOAT then yes he is

That depends on whether you consider Mercedes the manufacturer (ie 1954, 1955, 2010 onwards) or Mercedes the team (ie descendants of Brawn, Honda, BAR and, contractually at least, Tyrrell). The fact that they still had staff dating back to BAR working for them in the hybrid era, I'd be inclined to consider that more.

Clearly including the origins of the current team then they're nowhere near the "GOAT" team, whether you think of that as Tyrrell or BAR.

Obviously factually it's the same team as the 1954/55 one, but considering "GOAT" can be nothing but an opinion, then I can have that one too.