Soldato
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I think my chips will be a bit crispy if I leave them in the oven overnight
If you're doing chips in the oven then you have more problems than the time you're using said oven.
They never turned up to fit my smart meter
- Thread starter DXP55
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If you're doing chips in the oven then you have more problems than the time you're using said oven.
You either don't have a Secure Smart meter, or you need to tell them you have one and get it linked to your account, or it's not working properly !
Also - wind your neck in !
I can log onto the Octopus website and download my 30 minute meter readings for every day, which are auto submitted by my smart meter.
Just because your's doesn't do this, doesn't mean it's the same for everyone else.
The fact there are Suppliers offering specific tariffs for smart meters, means auto meter submissions is a thing!. Octopus Go is 30min meter submissions - no one is going to be manually doing that themselves 24/7
This is my actual 30min electricity use for yesterday
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If you're doing chips in the oven then you have more problems than the time you're using said oven.
I'm a simple man, oven chips go in the oven.
We use the slow cooker occasionally but I wouldn't want those sort of meals every night.
IMO smart meters will be the next water meters.
Early on with water meters people were all negative, bah I want to run the tap for hours and it will cost more type stuff. Over time its become clear for most that unless they abuse water its better to pay for what you use.
Everyone paying attention helps to drive down consumption, which avoids more infrastructure being needed for everyone abusing it.
So I see elec/gas smart meters as being the same. Paying for what you use when will be better for many. Real time pricing should help to pull down the big peak. People will adapt and evolve their patterns, making better use of cheap energy. Such as doing a nice slow cook over night then a microwave heat when they need it.
I think you will see the water equivalent of no meter being the elec/gas equivalent of not paying for time delimited usage, sure if you really want to have fixed unit pricing you can, but its going to cost you more than if you go smart and have variable, unless your vast majority of usage is during the very narrow window when the pricing will be at its absolute highest. IE not penalising the majority for the selfish minority.
I believe that sooner or later everyone will get a smart meter anyway, since all meters have to be replaced within a certain lifetime, so they will not fit another dumb meter (for dumb users) at that point.
Probably one of the few well rounded posts in this thread and 100% on the money.
To use your water meter anaology, i was paying £36 a month for water unmetered and i now pay £11.50 a month. I worked out over the time i've been in this house I've literally ****** away £2000 in unnecessary water charges for no reason. I had my Smart meter a SMETS1 installed about 3 years ago and it's helped me to get a better view of my usage and my monthly costs. I've been able to change my behaviours and change some things in the house so that i used less and in turn saved money.
One key thing to note.......
Smart meters dont save you money directly however they are meant to effect behaviours and choices which in turn help you to save money. For example charging EV's on offpeak, setting dishwasher or washing machines to turn on during offpeak or cheaper periods, prompting people to switch to more energy efficient devices and lightbulbs and finally prompting people to turn things off when not in use rather than just leaving them on.
It mystifies my how people cant see the above.
Also from a supply and generation side, we have horrific peak pricing from the generation side at the moment. Allowing mass data on supply peaks and dips allows the network and generation side to better plan the supply and account for the demand which then in thoery should reduce the cost of peak generation and this data also allows companies to offer tarrifs that incentivise people to push their usage to the more offpeak periods which then flattens the overall demand throughout the day, which in turn then allows us as a nation to try and sort out our electricity generation and plan the infrastructure and generation facilities we need to be energy secure.
@FISHGUTS FYI the Triad stuff you posted is for Large business not domestic users, a big difference there.
There are obvious groups that pop up in every thread about this.
1) EV owners using Smart meters and cheap charging tarrifs to save money
2) People who have Smart meters and now realise how much everything costs after yoloing for years and are now conscious about their energy usage and making behavioural changes to reduce consumption and save money
3) People with uncontrolled rage against smart meters saying they wont be able to fiddle their readings and it will push the prices up for everyone who doesnt have a smart meter
4) Tinfoil hat wearers
I've said my piece but i will say one thing that give me some mischievous joy is that those in groups 3 and 4 will have to have a Smart meter in the end, it's just a matter of time
Speak to your energy supplier then? If its SMETS1 it might be in the process of being enrolled with the DCC, if its SMETS2 it will most likely be a simple fix of pushing a few dataflows out the door to the Meter and it will start working.
Soldato
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It might be more accurate but a "clamp" style energy monitor would give you a pretty good understanding of your usage that you could use to tariff shop without the potential hassle of getting a smart meter fitted.
If you can get a smart meter fitted, it works reliably and doesn't affect your current tariff then sure but again, it's not "one size fits all" which unfortunately you're mistaking as "anti".
Again, if it works for you then more to you buddy but don't assume it does for others.
But isn't that assuming there's guaranteed savings of having a smart meter fitted?
I think majority of people can but certainly in the case of electricity, a smart meter isn't the only solution when it comes to measuring usage.
I've said my piece but i will say one thing that give me some mischievous joy is that those in groups 3 and 4 will have to have a Smart meter in the end, it's just a matter of time
Apart from completely ignoring those owners that genuinely can't get one fitted or can't make a smart meter work in their (legitimate) favour, then sure but it'll require the government to mandate it.
A little ironic in the context of this thread
it's a free solution that works for 90% of people that have them installed.
The government have already mandated it. If your meter is more than 20 years old it has to be replaced within the next 5 years this is a legal requirement as metering comes under the weights and measures act and there for the device doing the measuring has to be checked maintained and certified. They have (depending on meter type) a life expectancy of 15-25 years.
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It's not even close to being free. The most recent estimate is it will cost £13.4bn in total which is recovered through energy bills.
https://assets.publishing.service.g...meter-roll-out-cost-benefit-analysis-2019.pdf
I suppose you could legitimately say "you're paying for it anyway, so you might as well get one"; but it very definately hasn't been free.
You have always paid standing charge this is to pay for the operation maintenance and upgrade of infrastructure including your meter. It now also covers the rental of the meter assets from the DCC and associated companies.
The fact standing charge has been increased this year is another point entirely. And as the document you linked states the cost is to be souly on the shoulders of the suppliers, the Government and Ofgem have also stated the cost will not be passed on to customers via increased standing charge and tariffs.
Also I suspect the cost of the "smart meters" is probably not much more than the cost of a dumb meter (given the numbers involved), and probably works out cheaper in the long run as it massively reduces the likes of the number of meter readers and customer service staff whose only jobs are to collect and correct meter readings.
The reduction in meter fraud is also likely a big saving for the companies as they should be far more capable of spotting people interfering with meters without relying on the guy who calls round once every few months to hopefully find someone in the property so they can check the meter reading (and at the same time look for any obvious signs of tampering).
Unless it has changed, my understanding was the gas smart meter connected to the network via the leccy one, meaning they had to be with connection range.
Based on that I'm assuming as my gas meter outside (back) and the electric is inside (middle) won't talk together as the interior walls are solid, therefore would only operate as dumb.
As for flexible charging, l already have off peak charging, it's called E7.
Despite having a semi detached and long-ish back garden, I have no driveway therefore can't charge/nor afford an e.v, so struggling to see any benefit of smart metering or t.o.u.tarrifs at present (for me)
Based on that I'm assuming as my gas meter outside (back) and the electric is inside (middle) won't talk together as the interior walls are solid, therefore would only operate as dumb.
As for flexible charging, l already have off peak charging, it's called E7.
Despite having a semi detached and long-ish back garden, I have no driveway therefore can't charge/nor afford an e.v, so struggling to see any benefit of smart metering or t.o.u.tarrifs at present (for me)
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Page 6 of the document: "Just as with traditional metering, smart meter costs are recovered from energy suppliers’ entire customer bases."
The National Audit Office report from 2018 estimated that dual fuel households would, on average, save a grand total of £18/year.
https://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Rolling-out-smart-meters.pdf
That's taking account of all the costs associated with the program and all the possible associated benefits. So they already worked out the cost of running the meters and the fraud reduction and all the other things and the net benefit was calculated to be £18/year. That was a reduction on the original estimates because costs had gone up (of course) and the savings that consumers were supposed to be making by having the meters installed were not materialising.
That latest 2019 document shows that BEIS have started to "monetise the savings received from the reduced time consumers spend interacting with the energy system". Which is entirely valid from an economic point of view, but rather shows they need to scrape the bottom of the barrel to show the whole thing is actually worthwhile.
Smart meters actually cost more as the rent on them is paid to the DCC not to the supplier operating the service where as previously the costs associated to metering were all supplier.
Staff wise we (my employer EDF) actually employ more CS agents now than ever before also a huge number of back office and fault finding staff (higher skill levels than standard CS) also better paid than most in the business too. Although we have lost some meter readers lots of them have moved over to be meter techs.
A major part of the new meter roll out is to upgrade and investigate the general well being of metering installs. For and Electric meter install this includes supply head suitability (believe it or not most transporters (Western Power/UK Power Networks and so on) have no idea what state the asset in a property is in) cable type and state, We pull out old VIR (Vulcanised Indian Rubber) cables that can be very badly damaged from heat, time and age (the become brittle and fall apart). Meters that have ben bridged in the past and expose live components. Installs can be hanging off of walls especially when in cellars from rotten wooden boards. For a Gas install this includes a full tightness test before and after meter exchange, visual inspection of appliances (Cookers, Fires and Boilers) for signs of potential distress and the legal obligation to notify customers of faults. Identifying dangerous situations such as carbon monoxide leaks (just last week an operative in London identified a wall mounted heater that was pumping fumes into a property as its flue was blocked by rubbish from the outside, customer had been feeling unwell for many months before a diagnosis of CO poisoning).
Its not just about getting a smart meter on the wall! There is a whole safety culture that has come up because of what is found in the field by meter techs and engineers.
@VersionMonkey tagging me in your last post to answer your own question? as page 6 states "Just as with traditional metering, smart meter costs are recovered from energy suppliers’ entire customer bases." this is the standing charge, its what standing charge is for....
As for the values you quoted from the NAO no Supplier has ever stated smart meter will save you money, the Government however made several statements and then retracted them all under guidance from Ofgem. The Government initiative for smart metering stems from the G20 agreement to "better understand and reduce our carbon footprint as a nation", Smart meters were seen as an easy way to get the statistics that the G20's wanted to estimate carbon footprint, nothing more.
We have lived with artificially low fuel prices for many years because of cheap fuel imports from over seas, at some point that bubble had to burst, Ofgem and the Government have tried to stem the increase in costs as best they can but its a band aid on a gushing wound, prices are going up, nothing is going to stop it, its just another part of how broken our economy actually is, and the sooner Joe public realise this the better. We had the opportunity a few years ago to do an Iceland and ditch the Euro and Euronation influence and reset our economy, but the lovely Tory, business backed government refused to do it because they would have lost too much money and influence in the world markets. Then Brexit happened and we lost it all anyway and now we are in the pocket of all the Nations we borrowed from to shore up and economy that no longer functions.
No reason it wont connect, there are plans in place for adjustments to the system to make distance a thing of the past. Basically Zigbee has a max transmission range of around 30ft LOS, the more walls and structures in the way the less chance of it connecting, that said I have seen meters connect that are 40 and even 50ft apart.
Just because what you read says is most likely wont work does not mean that for you it definitely wont remember for ever good press article there will be 100 that say its bad!
I expect its coming also probably, interestingly as well the advertised benefits of cheap off peak power seem to only apply to EV owners.
Now I had a smart meter fitted 2 weeks and one day ago, the supplier is getting the readings but the IHD is a brick, and there seems no urgency in getting it working, I expect however if the problem was the other way round there would already be a new appointment for someone to come here to fix the meters.
After some advice on here from BigBoy, I was a bit more direct when ringing them back for the umpteenth time, the guy told me he could fix himself, after emailing him the IHD GUID I got a reply its passed on to the meter team who of course cannot be contacted lol. So into the black hole its gone.
Meanwhile I see I can buy an expensive IHD myself and have it remotely activated, wtf. The IHD I got now feels like it costs £1 to make, the battery lasts about 2 hours, and its signal range is apparently really short. Also not the wifi variant (not sure what the wifi benefits are but possible overcome the range limit?).
With all this said though I do not regret getting the meter changed, getting readings was a pain, and the actual readings are at least 30% lower than the old meter which I am figuring now was faulty. 30 min intervals is nice, if only I had access to live usage which seems only available via an IHD.
So if everyone is charging their car and running everything else at 4am, does 4am become the new peak time ?
Touche!
'Everyone' - lets clarify that !So if everyone is charging their car and running everything else at 4am, does 4am become the new peak time ?
Most EV owners charge their cars once a week and then 'everyone' isn't plugging in on the same day at the same time.
In terms of the current position
- There are about 400,000 electric cars on the road in the UK and over 750,000 plug-in hybrids (PHEVs) as of January 2022.
A home 7kw EV charger is pulling about the same demand as an electric cooker or shower.
Not really relevant for most people, but just to comment on the water meter thing, water meters can sometimes significantly increase costs even for a very frugal user. I used to live in a terraced house with no meter and a tiny water bill, due to the house's low value in 1990 (which iirc is what affects water bills for people without meters). I remember looking up water tariffs at the time and even if I, as a single occupant at that time, used the lower end of estimated figures for water usage I'd have been paying about 50% more if I'd had a meter.
Your point about smart meters influencing behaviour and giving information to the electricity generators etc is one way I've heard smart meters advertised, but it's never made sense to me. If you want consumers to shift demand to off peak times then you need to have two-rate tariffs or some kind of live update on cost per unit. In reality that's just not happened. Last time I changed supplier none of the two part tariffs were available to me because my smart meter is an old model. However, even if they had been they wouldn't have made sense for me - would need to be able to move a significant amount of demand to the off peak time to out weight increased costs during the rest of the day for things like cooking, watching TV, lighting etc, washing if you want to do more than one load a day tk take advantage of good drying weather etc, which aren't so easily moved. Only seemed to make sense for people charging electric cars at home or with old fashioned storage heaters etc.
And as far as I could see there was nothing even close to the sort of live update pricing which some touted as a benefit of smart meters - only seemed to be set time periods which would be 'off peak' and charged at a set rate.
Maybe some people turn their lights out because they can see a number ticking up on a little screen (which probably uses more power than is saved...), not sure how much of a long term effect that is though...
All the articles about smart meters seem to emphasise this data for suppliers being really useful too, but honestly don't see what difference it makes... The grid as a whole has the established feedback of frequency drops / increases to allow generation to be controlled, and has very good data on historic usage patterns. At a more local level companies can collect data from substations to show variations in local demand. Maybe I'm missing something, but this explanation has never made sense to me, given the other feedback mechanisms available which don't rely on millions of electronic widgets costing hundreds of pounds each, with expensive data connections...
Overall it seems like in theory there are all sorts of useful things you could do with live updates on pricing, automatically switching appliances on and off to reduce peak demand etc, but in practice it's just not materialised, and most impacts they have had on electric car chargers etc could have been achieved with old style economy 7 metering at a lower cost... Maybe it's all coming soon, but makes no sense why you'd start this expensive roll out of smart meters and then wait so long before actually using their supposed capabilities.