They never turned up to fit my smart meter

How do water meters affect your council tax bill? That's how I pay it I don't know about down in England?
If you are unemployed and have a water meter how does this work?
 
How do water meters affect your council tax bill? That's how I pay it I don't know about down in England?
If you are unemployed and have a water meter how does this work?

There's no need for a water meter in Scotland. As you say, water bill is included with council tax payment so there's no option for paying a different amount - it's fixed as part of tax bill.
 
The government have already mandated it. If your meter is more than 20 years old it has to be replaced within the next 5 years this is a legal requirement as metering comes under the weights and measures act and there for the device doing the measuring has to be checked maintained and certified. They have (depending on meter type) a life expectancy of 15-25 years.

Other than the targets set out for suppliers to prompt "non-smart" users to opt for one, is there legal obligation for a homeowner to have one fitted?
Happy to hold my hands up but the Ofgem website doesn't state that from what i've read in the past.

Although i am surprised digital "dumb" meters have that short of a life expectancy :confused:
 
@VersionMonkey tagging me in your last post to answer your own question? as page 6 states "Just as with traditional metering, smart meter costs are recovered from energy suppliers’ entire customer bases." this is the standing charge, its what standing charge is for..

I tagged you in for this bit:

And as the document you linked states the cost is to be souly on the shoulders of the suppliers, the Government and Ofgem have also stated the cost will not be passed on to customers via increased standing charge and tariffs.

Your statement that the cost is solely on the shoulders of the suppliers is directly contradicted in the document by the statement I quoted to you and you've just quoted back at me. Perhaps I have misunderstood your point - were you not talking about the cost of smart meters in that sentence?

The Government initiative for smart metering stems from the G20 agreement to "better understand and reduce our carbon footprint as a nation"

Got a link for that one? I can't see that reference in the conclusions of the meetings in the run up to the start of the UK smart meter roll out.

I was under the impression that Directive 2009/72/EC (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32009L0072&from=EN) which required:
In order to promote energy efficiency, Member States or, where a Member State has so provided, the regulatory authority shall strongly recommend that electricity undertakings optimise the use of electricity, for example by providing energy management services, developing innovative pricing formulas, or introducing intelligent metering systems or smart grids, where appropriate.
amongst other measures was the basis on which the UK smart meter roll out was started.

It could be that the directive itself derived from a G20 conclusion, but as I said, I couldn't find one on a quick search.
 
Not really relevant for most people, but just to comment on the water meter thing, water meters can sometimes significantly increase costs even for a very frugal user. I used to live in a terraced house with no meter and a tiny water bill, due to the house's low value in 1990 (which iirc is what affects water bills for people without meters). I remember looking up water tariffs at the time and even if I, as a single occupant at that time, used the lower end of estimated figures for water usage I'd have been paying about 50% more if I'd had a meter.

Your point about smart meters influencing behaviour and giving information to the electricity generators etc is one way I've heard smart meters advertised, but it's never made sense to me. If you want consumers to shift demand to off peak times then you need to have two-rate tariffs or some kind of live update on cost per unit. In reality that's just not happened. Last time I changed supplier none of the two part tariffs were available to me because my smart meter is an old model. However, even if they had been they wouldn't have made sense for me - would need to be able to move a significant amount of demand to the off peak time to out weight increased costs during the rest of the day for things like cooking, watching TV, lighting etc, washing if you want to do more than one load a day tk take advantage of good drying weather etc, which aren't so easily moved. Only seemed to make sense for people charging electric cars at home or with old fashioned storage heaters etc.

And as far as I could see there was nothing even close to the sort of live update pricing which some touted as a benefit of smart meters - only seemed to be set time periods which would be 'off peak' and charged at a set rate.

Maybe some people turn their lights out because they can see a number ticking up on a little screen (which probably uses more power than is saved...), not sure how much of a long term effect that is though...

All the articles about smart meters seem to emphasise this data for suppliers being really useful too, but honestly don't see what difference it makes... The grid as a whole has the established feedback of frequency drops / increases to allow generation to be controlled, and has very good data on historic usage patterns. At a more local level companies can collect data from substations to show variations in local demand. Maybe I'm missing something, but this explanation has never made sense to me, given the other feedback mechanisms available which don't rely on millions of electronic widgets costing hundreds of pounds each, with expensive data connections...

Overall it seems like in theory there are all sorts of useful things you could do with live updates on pricing, automatically switching appliances on and off to reduce peak demand etc, but in practice it's just not materialised, and most impacts they have had on electric car chargers etc could have been achieved with old style economy 7 metering at a lower cost... Maybe it's all coming soon, but makes no sense why you'd start this expensive roll out of smart meters and then wait so long before actually using their supposed capabilities.

There was (is still maybe) an octopus tariff that varied by hourly (maybe 30 minute) slots day by day. It was based on the previous days spot rates at each time, it often went negative over night. It of course was very expensive (since spot rates are) during the evening peak.
I was going to switch to it, but at the time was struggling to get a meter fitted.

We discussed elsewhere that part of the breaking up of the monopoly suppliers was to create innovation, this was one of the bigger ones.
It was particularly good for people with a high base but also ability to be flexible as they were home a lot, such as pensioners.

Now smart meters arent the only way to undertake this, but before you can really start to attempt to change the profile of what you use and when, you need to understand the numbers.
They are simply a tool, the benefits coming from them will be dependant on understanding the data, plus getting more if necessary, and having the ability to act on it.
 
I don't really see the need for changing, but I might have done if it was easy. I think my electricity meter can be done, but my Gas is not possible apparently. Unless I spend LOTs of money :(

I have one of those plug in the wall energy thingies that tells me what I am using, load/spend/etc. Isn't it basically exactly the same as that anyway? It just requires me to deal with no power for a couple of hours, and the inconvenience of getting an engineer around. The only REAL benefit is that I don't do a meter reading once a month?
 
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That's surprising and interesting. What were the several downsides for you?
Wirelessly interfering with other devices within the home. At times making it harder to switch suppliers, terrible life spans constantly needing to be replaced, unreliable meter readings as they can barely get a signal in my location all for what I see as zero benefit.
 
Wirelessly interfering with other devices within the home. At times making it harder to switch suppliers, terrible life spans constantly needing to be replaced, unreliable meter readings as they can barely get a signal in my location all for what I see as zero benefit.

Ahh, ok. Nothing real then, just feelings, as you've not actiually had one fitted?

Do you have a mobile phone in the house?
 
Wirelessly interfering with other devices within the home. At times making it harder to switch suppliers, terrible life spans constantly needing to be replaced, unreliable meter readings as they can barely get a signal in my location all for what I see as zero benefit.

That is interesting, it seems that they are working on an unlicensed 2.4ghz which can cause issues with 2.4ghz wifi. I still run a 2.4 network in my house for a few smart home, and dumb wifi type devices to keep them off the 5ghz band that I use for internet access.
 
Ahh, ok. Nothing real then. Just feelings.
That makes no sense what I said has got nothing to do with feelings. Those are real downsides to smart meters. Many current smart meters are going be useless in a matter of years as they are due to stop working. Why waste time upgrading now for zero benefit only to have to upgrade it again in a matter of years.

EDIT: We have mobiles but cannot use them in the house.
 
That is interesting, it seems that they are working on an unlicensed 2.4ghz which can cause issues with 2.4ghz wifi. I still run a 2.4 network in my house for a few smart home, and dumb wifi type devices to keep them off the 5ghz band that I use for internet access.

They use the mobile phone network. Mine uses O2. Not sure if they all do or just certain ones.
 
That makes no sense what I said has got nothing to do with feelings. Those are real downsides to smart meters. Many current smart meters are going be useless in a matter of years as they are due to stop working. Why waste time upgrading now for zero benefit only to have to upgrade it again in a matter of years.

I was interested to know if you had actual real downsides to a sm. You haven’t.
 
Ahh, ok. Nothing real then, just feelings, as you've not actiually had one fitted?

Do you have a mobile phone in the house?

Looks to me like some quite valid points! My current Gas meter is over 30 years old. Still working well. If the newer meters are not lasting as long, that is a backwards step. People have reported issues with meters not working with new suppliers, and there are some concerns/real world examples around the 2.4ghz network issues with meters being installed.
 
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