They never turned up to fit my smart meter

[Malt_Vinegar]

They use the mobile phone network. Mine uses O2. Not sure if they all do or just certain ones.

What I found online suggests this is not the case, only some use the mobile networks.


https://www.eonenergy.com/help/smart-meters/about-smart-meters.html

If you've recently joined us from another supplier and have a first generation Smart meter, your smart meter might not work straight away but the industry is working hard to get these meters enrolled by 2022.

https://www.smartme.co.uk/smets-2.html

2G and 3G networks to close by 2033
The government and UK mobile network operators have agreed to phase out 2G and 3G mobile networks by 2033 in order to free up bandwidth for 5G and future 6G services. This includes Telefónica (O2) who provide the Smart Meter communications for the Central and Southern regions of the UK.

This change will require the replacement of communications hubs on the Smart Electricity Meters in the Central and Southern regions of the UK. To this end the DCC plan to have 4G single band Communications Hubs available in 2023, with dual band to follow in Q2 2024.

https://smartenergycodecompany.co.uk/glossary/dual-band-comms-hub/

In 2020, a more sophisticated hub with a choice of frequencies started being installed. These are called Dual Band Comms Hubs. They use a HAN frequency of 868MHz along with the existing 2.4GHz frequency. Dual Band Comms Hubs (DBCH) are expected to increase coverage to 96.5% of premises. These hubs will enable millions more British homes to benefit from Smart Metering.

 

[Pottsey]

I was interested to know if you had actual real downsides to a sm. You haven’t.

Please explain to me how a smart meter interfering with a mobile phone signal so we cannot make mobile calls is not a real problem? How are the other points not valid?

We have a smart meter fitted in one property and not the other property as like I said there are valid downsides and from what I see no real benefit for us.

 

[GreatAuk]

I think one other reason to at least be critical of smart meters is their cost. You might not have to pay for it explicitly, but the cost is added to everyone's bills. You wouldn't buy a £374 PC component, say, without believing it would have a significant benefit (https://blog.loop.homes/the-hidden-cost-of-smart-meters - I can't find a better source with a quick Google, all the energy company FAQs are a bit quiet about it for some reason only emphasising how it won't cost you anything upfront).
However we're expected to believe these smart meters are worthwhile based on some theoretical future benefits around understanding the data, and tariffs which are only available to a small number of customers currently, but might allow some flexible users to reduce peak demand.

There was (is still maybe) an octopus tariff that varied by hourly (maybe 30 minute) slots day by day. It was based on the previous days spot rates at each time, it often went negative over night. It of course was very expensive (since spot rates are) during the evening peak.
I was going to switch to it, but at the time was struggling to get a meter fitted.

We discussed elsewhere that part of the breaking up of the monopoly suppliers was to create innovation, this was one of the bigger ones.
It was particularly good for people with a high base but also ability to be flexible as they were home a lot, such as pensioners.

Now smart meters arent the only way to undertake this, but before you can really start to attempt to change the profile of what you use and when, you need to understand the numbers.
They are simply a tool, the benefits coming from them will be dependant on understanding the data, plus getting more if necessary, and having the ability to act on it.

That's interesting about that Octopus tariff, guess that's closer to the kind of thing that people said smart meters would be able to do. Still waiting for them to link up with appliances like we were told they'd be able to though...

Maybe this is innovation, but so far it seems more like technology looking for an application in many cases. All very well installing them in people's homes when they think they'll be able to take advantage of cheap rates and avoid expensive rates, but I really don't see the benefit for the majority of households so far. Doesn't really feel like innovation to me, just a technology-push.

You mention benefits from understanding and using the data, but that feels very hand wavy to me. Until I can get live price updates or appliances set to interface with the meter I really don't see the benefit from the data, and I really struggle to imagine what benefit the power company is getting from it either.

Seems to me like an objective assessment of the smart meter rollout in a decade or so will show it to have been an almighty waste of time and money, given how limited the benefits are for most people.

From my point of view literally the only differences between an ordinary meter and my smart meter are that it's harder to read my smart meter, and I've got an extra piece of e-waste (the little usage screen gadget) sat in the cupboard. I suspect that will be the case for many other households too.

Am sure benefits will grow over time as more people end up with electric cars which can be charged at low demand times once they start interfacing chargers with meters etc, but imo that just shows it was a waste installing so many smart meters before people could benefit significantly from them.

 

[Journey]

Until I can get live price updates or appliances set to interface with the meter I really don't see the benefit from the data, and I really struggle to imagine what benefit the power company is getting from it either.

My car charger use my energy providers API to interface with their rate through the smart meter so it can charge when it is cheapest. My home battery storage uses the the providers API to interface with it to know when the best time to export is, via the smart meter.

 

[Malt_Vinegar]

My car charger use my energy providers API to interface with their rate through the smart meter so it can charge when it is cheapest. My home battery storage uses the the providers API to interface with it to know when the best time to export is, via the smart meter.

Do they promise to maintain it, and have legacy meter support as things change?

Because, that is really cool, I should add

 

[GreatAuk]

My car charger use my energy providers API to interface with their rate through the smart meter so it can charge when it is cheapest. My home battery storage uses the the providers API to interface with it to know when the best time to export is, via the smart meter.

That's really good to hear that's actually happening. Hopefully over time there will be more benefits like that.

However, it's a small minority of the population that have EVs and home battery storage.

 

[Malt_Vinegar]

That's really good to hear that's actually happening. Hopefully over time there will be more benefits like that.

However, it's a small minority of the population that have EVs and home battery storage.

I think this is the often over-looked point. The people who have these things that enable savings are not likely to be the ones who are suffering, and need energy use support.

 

[Puzzled]

However, it's a small minority of the population that have EVs and home battery storage.

and they are the only ones that really save money from having a smart meter. For anyone on a standard tariff they are just a constant reminder of how expensive energy is now, friend of mine put his display away as he was tired of his missus going on about it

I know that means they can reduce their usage and that is a true to a point but when people have cut right down and are still stressed out by the daily cost then that is a really rubbish way to live. Just feels like those who can afford expensive home energy storage or electric vehicles are benefitting from cheaper off-peak energy while those who are struggling get no help at all.

 

[Malt_Vinegar]

Oh, and I found this little gem too:

Your gas meter is battery-powered so, like traditional prepayment meters, will need to have its battery replaced when it goes flat. This is the same as with traditional prepayment meters. Your gas smart meter should send a notification to your supplier when it needs replacing, but if you’re concerned, contact your energy firm. Smart electricity meters are mains-powered.

Yet more waste and inconvenience!

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

I think one other reason to at least be critical of smart meters is their cost. You might not have to pay for it explicitly, but the cost is added to everyone's bills. You wouldn't buy a £374 PC component, say, without believing it would have a significant benefit (https://blog.loop.homes/the-hidden-cost-of-smart-meters - I can't find a better source with a quick Google, all the energy company FAQs are a bit quiet about it for some reason only emphasising how it won't cost you anything upfront).
However we're expected to believe these smart meters are worthwhile based on some theoretical future benefits around understanding the data, and tariffs which are only available to a small number of customers currently, but might allow some flexible users to reduce peak demand.

That's interesting about that Octopus tariff, guess that's closer to the kind of thing that people said smart meters would be able to do. Still waiting for them to link up with appliances like we were told they'd be able to though...

Maybe this is innovation, but so far it seems more like technology looking for an application in many cases. All very well installing them in people's homes when they think they'll be able to take advantage of cheap rates and avoid expensive rates, but I really don't see the benefit for the majority of households so far. Doesn't really feel like innovation to me, just a technology-push.

You mention benefits from understanding and using the data, but that feels very hand wavy to me. Until I can get live price updates or appliances set to interface with the meter I really don't see the benefit from the data, and I really struggle to imagine what benefit the power company is getting from it either.

Seems to me like an objective assessment of the smart meter rollout in a decade or so will show it to have been an almighty waste of time and money, given how limited the benefits are for most people.

From my point of view literally the only differences between an ordinary meter and my smart meter are that it's harder to read my smart meter, and I've got an extra piece of e-waste (the little usage screen gadget) sat in the cupboard. I suspect that will be the case for many other households too.

Am sure benefits will grow over time as more people end up with electric cars which can be charged at low demand times once they start interfacing chargers with meters etc, but imo that just shows it was a waste installing so many smart meters before people could benefit significantly from them.

The Octopus tariff was the innovation.
People forget now, but the monthly fixed bills were also innovation that came from outside the big players, its now 30 years or so ago so people forget. At that point it was normal to pay in arrears what ever amount you owed. And whilst some people prefer it, the majority like to budget same amounts monthly.

Meters have to be changed at some point anyway.

Its not handwavy to need to understand the data to know where to start. A dumb meter unless your constantly reading it is impossible to track your high usage down to a specific point in the day, or in real time.
Its literally the first stage in being able to materially affect your usage.
As I said you can do this with a dumb meter but you need an energy monitoring device.

Really we are at stage 1 enabling.
Stage 2 implementation right now is only for people with EVs/batteries really, once more tariff options AND smart devices happen you will seem more.
Eg your dishwasher and washing machine able to detect the pricing and switch on when the first cheaper rate is notified.

The octopus one is still availble, its agileoctopus https://octopus.energy/agile/
The opportunity is there now and its great if you can make it work. Its far less beneficial right now than it was due to the price cap.

 

[Pottsey]

Its not handwavy to need to understand the data to know where to start. A dumb meter unless your constantly reading it is impossible to track your high usage down to a specific point in the day, or in real time.
Its literally the first stage in being able to materially affect your usage.
As I said you can do this with a dumb meter but you need an energy monitoring device

I don’t buy into that as we don’t need a monitoring device, at least not everyone does. Why would I need an energy monitoring device to track high usage? We can do that with common sense and a basic knowledge of electronics. I know precisely what my high energy use devices are and at what point they turn on and off. I also know when the best time to turn them on and off is without looking at a dumb meter or a smart meter. There is zero requirement or benefit for me to use a smart member energy monitor device. For example I know to turn my dish washer on when the sun is at its peak for the cheapest price and not use it in the middle of the night where it costs more. You don't need a meter of any type to work that type of usage out. Same for a kettle I know doing a full boil takes up more energy then a half boil with the amount of water needed. Some basic knowledge of electronics overrides the need for dumb or smart meters.

Personally, I don’t find it impossible to track, it’s pretty easy to track. A smart meter would track it more accurately but the way I see it there is no real benefit in that at the moment. There is no benefit for that level of detail as it doesn’t save any money.

I do see the long-term benefits in future generations of smart meters being linked into battery's and auto turn off and on device. I can see how the current generation can help some people who cannot judge usage. Its just it feels like people are overplaying the benefits of current smart meters and making it out like they will save money and when for a lot of people they don't do anything useful.

 

[Journey]

For example I know to turn my dish washer on when the sun is at its peak for the cheapest price and not use it in the middle of the night where it costs more.

Whut?

 

[Deleted User 298457]

Whut?

Takes longer to dry at night durr

 

[Kenai]

Whut?

Guessing he has solar panels, so he aims to run his high energy stuff when the sun is shining.

 

[Pottsey]

Whut?

Solar Panels mean the cheapest time to use electricity doesnt always match the cheapest rates which is another reason I don't really like or see the benefit of current smart meters. Even at this time of year with clouds and rain I have produced 17kWh today. I just don't understand why a smart meter energy monitoring device is needed as long as you have a base understanding of how electricity works and how much electricity a device pulls. Not everyone needs or benefits from a smart meter energy monitoring device to adjust there energy usage. The meters can help some people but they are not a blanket useful thing for everyone.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

I don’t buy into that as we don’t need a monitoring device, at least not everyone does. Why would I need an energy monitoring device to track high usage? We can do that with common sense and a basic knowledge of electronics. I know precisely what my high energy use devices are and at what point they turn on and off. I also know when the best time to turn them on and off is without looking at a dumb meter or a smart meter. There is zero requirement or benefit for me to use a smart member energy monitor device. For example I know to turn my dish washer on when the sun is at its peak for the cheapest price and not use it in the middle of the night where it costs more. You don't need a meter of any type to work that type of usage out. Same for a kettle I know doing a full boil takes up more energy then a half boil with the amount of water needed. Some basic knowledge of electronics overrides the need for dumb or smart meters.

Personally, I don’t find it impossible to track, it’s pretty easy to track. A smart meter would track it more accurately but the way I see it there is no real benefit in that at the moment. There is no benefit for that level of detail as it doesn’t save any money.

I do see the long-term benefits in future generations of smart meters being linked into battery's and auto turn off and on device. I can see how the current generation can help some people who cannot judge usage. Its just it feels like people are overplaying the benefits of current smart meters and making it out like they will save money and when for a lot of people they don't do anything useful.

Not everyone has solar, you know what your solar produced, so you care about the numbers, now imagine for just one minute you didn't have solar, would you care then?

My suspicion is most people cant track usage particularly well, and then those that cant to maths that well.

Why would the sun need to be at its peak to run your dishwasher, I mean you know the load cycle right, what consumption is at what stage in the cycle of washing/drying, so you would know when to turn it on, considering what % of the load its going to need minute by minute
Oh wait, you dont, your just wait for it to be be peak height sun and then turn it on as your sure that your generation will exceed then needs.

Without solar you probably would need a smart meter a hell of a lot more than you think by the sounds of it.

Also, I don't think many people really understand energy usage at all, basic knowledge of electronics means didly really. Sky boxes for example that ran at exactly the same wattage when "off" as when running, all they did was turn the LED off.
A basic undertstanding of electronics isn't going to tell you if all the engineer who designed it did is turn the LED off or actually powers down the chips and disc.

Honestly I think most people would benefit from just understanding how their actions affect their usage. My other half a great example, goes on about leaving lights on using 3w but leaves her hair tongs on for 20 minutes "to warm up properly", when in reality they do that in about 60 seconds.
What about the oven vs the microwave.

Solar Panels mean the cheapest time to use electricity doesnt always match the cheapest rates which is another reason I don't really like or see the benefit of current smart meters. Even at this time of year with clouds and rain I have produced 17kWh today. I just don't understand why a smart meter energy monitoring device is needed as long as you have a base understanding of how electricity works and how much electricity a device pulls. Not everyone needs or benefits from a smart meter energy monitoring device to adjust there energy usage. The meters can help some people but they are not a blanket useful thing for everyone.

You dont like smart meters, what?
You sound like you have dreamt up a hatred and your trying to justify.

They are just a tool and like any tool, those that learn to use it efficiently will benefit more than those that don't.

I dont think I have ever seen anyone say that everyone will benefit from them.
Although arguably everyone does who receives better billing as a result of their energy company understanding their usage pattern better.

One of the energy companies even ran a trial, asking people to move their usage, and they monitored it. That helped with the future grid planning as it helps to understand what people could / would do with the right motivations.
I wonder how they would have achieved that with just their dumb meters

 

[SDK^]

A lot of smart meters will turn into dumb meters by 2033 as the network they are based on is due to be switched off.

2033 - seriously, that’s another 11 years of worry!

 

[SDK^]

Solar Panels mean the cheapest time to use electricity doesnt always match the cheapest rates which is another reason I don't really like or see the benefit of current smart meters. Even at this time of year with clouds and rain I have produced 17kWh today. I just don't understand why a smart meter energy monitoring device is needed as long as you have a base understanding of how electricity works and how much electricity a device pulls. Not everyone needs or benefits from a smart meter energy monitoring device to adjust there energy usage. The meters can help some people but they are not a blanket useful thing for everyone.

Likewise, if you had battery storage then come winter, if you had a SM then you could join a time of use tariff and charge it overnight on a cheap rate to use during the day.

 

[Pottsey]

“Its not handwavy to need to understand the data to know where to start. A dumb meter unless your constantly reading it is impossible to track your high usage down to a specific point in the day, or in real time.
Its literally the first stage in being able to materially affect your usage.
As I said you can do this with a dumb meter but you need an energy monitoring device.”

I don’t buy into that that as we don’t need a monitoring device, at least not everyone does. Why would I need an energy monitoring device to track high usage? We can do that with common sense and a basic knowledge of electronics. I know precisely what my high energy use devices are and at what point they turn on and off. I also know when the best time to turn them on and off is without looking at a dumb meter or a smart meter. There is zero requirement or benefit for me to use a smart member energy monitor device.

Personally, I don’t find it impossible to track, it’s pretty easy to track. A smart meter would track it more accurately but that is pointless. There is no benefit for that level of detail as it doesn’t save any money.

While I do see the long-term benefits in future generations of smart meters and I can see how the current meters might help some people it feels like overall people are overplaying the benefits of current smart meters.

“Not everyone has solar, you know what your solar produced, so you care about the numbers, now imagine for just one minute you didn't have solar, would you care then?”

Not having solar would make me adjust my habits over having solar but I don’t see how a smart meter reader would help. When I buy an item, I tend to read the energy usage on the back and work out the best way to use it. I know my fan heater at 2800watt on low mode and 3000watt on high is more than an average fan heater and that leaving it on for lengths of time is efficient over other methods. So, I don’t see a need for a smart meter to tell me how much energy I am using. I can work that out myself by looking at energy usage and estimating via time the device is on. I don’t feel the need to know precisely as an estimate does the same job. Knowing in precise details doesn’t help me save money. I can understand my usage pattern without needing a smart meter.

What I was trying to get across is not everyone needs a meter reader to understand their actions and effect on usage. A lot of this comes down to a person-to-person thing as people think differently. Someone whose job is a Systems Engineer is less likely to need help with understanding energy usage. While say a random artist who might not have a clue what Watts mean in terms of energy bills is more likely to benefit.

“You dont like smart meters, what?
You sound like you have dreamt up a hatred and your trying to justify.”

Its not that I outright hate smart meters as I have no objections to other people using them. It that I do not like the current smart meters for myself as there is zero benefit for me and a bunch of downsides. I can see the benefit of them once the technology has matured and got better. It just seems pointless for me to install the current generation of them knowing it won’t do anything useful and will need replacing in a handful of years. From what I can see the best path for me is to keep my dumb meter and wait a generation or more before moving to smart.

To be clear I am talking from my point of view. I can see how other people can benefit from them for the various reasons you stated. I like you comment they are a tool. A tool that some people benefit from and others do not but still a tool that can be useful for some, just not for all.

“Why would the sun need to be at its peak to run your dishwasher, I mean you know the load cycle right, what consumption is at what stage in the cycle of washing/drying, so you would know when to turn it on, considering what % of the load its going to need minute by minute

”

It wouldn’t need to be at its peak which is kind of the point. The whole idea of looking at energy minuet to minuet with or without a smart meter seems unhealthy to me. Being sensible and running some estimated energy checks in your head has the same output as looking at a smart meter reader. Though as you say

“My suspicion is most people cant track usage particularly well, and then those that cant to maths that well.”

For those people I fully agree that smart meter readers are useful and can help save money.

 

[Pottsey]

2033 - seriously, that’s another 11 years of worry!

It is a long time but another way to look at it is those that jumped on the smart meters early have had to install 1st gen, then fit 2nd gen and then in a matter of years fit a 3rd gen. Personally I would rather just skip all that until I see a real benefit. When smarts improve enough I will jump aboard. As meter readers go how many people know some of the Smarts will only last 11 years? Which is rather short compared to dumb meters.

“Likewise, if you had battery storage then come winter, if you had a SM then you could join a time of use tariff and charge it overnight on a cheap rate to use during the day.”

That’s got little to do with SM’s. We don’t need a SM to be on an off-peak tariff to benefit from charging a battery up overnight.

To be honest I need to redo the math's on those battery systems. Battery storage systems are not really that beneficial at least last time I ran the real numbers which was many years ago so this might not be true anymore. By real numbers I mean not the inflated marketing numbers solar panel and battery selling companies often use. Anyway by the time we have saved enough money to cover the cost of the battery its time to replace the battery which leads to a never-ending cycle of costing more money than we save. I do love the idea behind the battery systems it’s just, I cannot get the math's for them to work long term. Though that was before the current big energy price changes.

Has anyone got the math's to show a benefit from battery systems factoring in the life span of the battery and replacing the battery's over time? Part of the problem I have is not only would I need a full new battery system but I believe possibly a new inventor as well which bumps up the pay back time past the life span of the battery.

Please correct me if I am wrong as I hope at some point the pay back falls below the life span of the battery's if it hasn't already.