Everton and zero money - Updated 17/11/23

[woppy101]

Leeds and Burnley have both written to the PL to question wether Everton have broken FFP after posting losses of £370m (Covid loses of £175M when rest of premier League was around £40-60M)

Everton 'confident' they have complied by FFP rules after Burnley and Leeds threaten legal action

Premier League rules allow clubs to lose a maximum of £105m over three years; clubs have been allowed to write off losses caused by the pandemic; in their latest accounts Everton said £170m of their losses were caused by the pandemic

www.skysports.com

For comparison Newcastle posted losses of £40m due to Covid, £175m seems a little suspect

Edit wrong Newcastle figure

 

[sneakysnail]

They do have a point. I'd like to see all 3 relegated so dont really have a horse in that race, but if they've been cheating then they should go down.

No doubt the PL would just hit them with a fine though......

 

[woppy101]

They do have a point. I'd like to see all 3 relegated so dont really have a horse in that race, but if they've been cheating then they should go down.

No doubt the PL would just hit them with a fine though......

Owners of other clubs will be watching with great interest, if that that’s the punishment for basically cheating and ignoring FFP

 

[bazzabear]

It was the punishment for basically cheating and ignoring rules about transfers back in 2007.

 

[woppy101]

It was the punishment for basically cheating and ignoring rules about transfers back in 2007.

I can see clubs now just spending what they want if Everton just get a fine you can’t have 1 punishment for 1 club and a different punishment for other clubs, if the PL now try and impose a points deduction to other clubs they will just take it to court and point back to this case.

More accurate Covid losses of PL clubs

COVID-19: Income loss of Premier League football clubs | Statista

This statistic presents the estimated income losses of each of the 20 football clubs within the English Premier League.

www.statista.com

Premier League clubs lost a staggering £618MILLION due to Covid-19

Figures show United saw a massive £118m drop in revenue when football was brought to a standstill last year. Football was stopped for three months as the UK was plunged into lockdown.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[BaZ87]

Any complaints from Leeds and Burnley will likely go no where and are nothing more an opportunistic attempt at getting a little pay off to soften the blow of relegation. Posting headline figures on how much Everton have lost over 3 years is nonsense because those aren't the figures that matter. Within those losses there will be loads of expenses that aren't included in the FFP calculation. Furthermore, which really helps Everton, the 2019/20 season and 2020/21 season's accounts aren't both included independently in the 3 year cycle, they instead take an average of the two due to covid. Everton's overall loss over the 3 year cycle of 17/18, 18/19 and then the average of 19/20 & 20/21 is circa £250m. Once you then remove allowable expenses such as youth investment, infrastructure work etc, that drops by around another £70m so before you even get to covid losses, Everton are now only £75m(ish) away from meeting the PL's breakeven limit.

This from Swiss Ramble explains it better and shows that even only accounting for £41m in covid losses, Everton are only around £40m off the PL's limit:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1510859815496691713

The challenge for Everton will come next season when the 3 year cycle excludes 17/18 (where they didn't lose much) and is replaced by this season.

 

[Vanquish-Storm]

They do have a point. I'd like to see all 3 relegated so dont really have a horse in that race, but if they've been cheating then they should go down.

No doubt the PL would just hit them with a fine though......

Fining a business that’s losing millions that’s typical of the Premier League.

 

[omnomnom]

Fining a business that’s losing millions that’s typical of the Premier League.

If a club has been found to be guilty, lets say next season, why do you think the punishment should be?

 

[montymint]

If a club has been found to be guilty, lets say next season, why do you think the punishment should be?

IMO for breaches of FFP for large spenders it's gotta be points right? Didn't Derby and Blackpool get slapped with points for FFP violations?

A fine to the wealthy teams will do nothing to dissuade them.

 

[omnomnom]

IMO for breaches of FFP for large spenders it's gotta be points right? Didn't Derby and Blackpool get slapped with points for FFP violations?

A fine to the wealthy teams will do nothing to dissuade them.

If you've found to have breached it in a major way, tens of millions etc, then i don't see how it isn't points plus a fine. Maximum deterrence.

 

[montymint]

If you've found to have breached it in a major way, tens of millions etc, then i don't see how it isn't points plus a fine. Maximum deterrence.

Sure, the fine on top would be great - but points has to be the first port of call to stop teams trying to buy safety / success at the top. A 3-6 point deduction to Everton would relegate them and the same would cost City / Liverpool the title (not saying the latter two did this, it's just for illustration).

 

[woppy101]

If you've found to have breached it in a major way, tens of millions etc, then i don't see how it isn't points plus a fine. Maximum deterrence.

Sure, the fine on top would be great - but points has to be the first port of call to stop teams trying to buy safety / success at the top. A 3-6 point deduction to Everton would relegate them and the same would cost City / Liverpool the title (not saying the latter two did this, it's just for illustration).

Sadly the PL have already proved they haven’t got the balls to sanction Everton, as they have known for a while that they have not just crossed the FFP line but pole vaulted over it and decided to “work with them” instead of punishing them.


we're talking about Everton and ffp, psg effectively just said "hold my beer"

 

[BaZ87]

Sadly the PL have already proved they haven’t got the balls to sanction Everton, as they have known for a while that they have not just crossed the FFP line but pole vaulted over it and decided to “work with them” instead of punishing them.

They haven't pole vaulted over it though. This is the danger of listening to football journalists that have little or no idea about finance.

Even only accounting for very basic direct covid related losses, Everton are only £13m per year outside the PL's breakeven limits. That's barely a top players salary per season. They might be pushing their luck with the amount of indirect covid related losses they're trying to claim however their argument is not without merit. Covid has had a negative effect on the transfer market and that will have effected both the ability to shift players and also the prices they achieved. As mentioned, we're only talking about £39m or £13m per season, that amount is very easily covered by a couple of modest sales which were negatively effected by covid.

As for the PL not having the balls, that's simply not true. The PL have been pursuing Man City for the past 3-4 years despite City's best attempts at delaying proceedings and attempting to have the case against them thrown out. The PL have continued to fight every little challenge City have put up and, reportedly, are beginning to reach the end game, where they will charge City.

 

[kaiowas]

I mean, what’s £40m between friends?

It’s still 40% above the allowable limit *after* making a bunch of deductions for various extenuating circumstances. Try that defence next time you get a speeding ticket and see how far it gets you.

 

[Azza]

1) It's not FFP FFS!

2) Everton have had an open book policy for over 12 months with the PL, they supported the auditing of accounts and signed them off.

3) Our owner is a guy who's shifting money and assets around for a Russian oligarch under international sanctions. If he can do that then he'll run rings around their dial-a-phone lawyers.

 

[IronSpider]

The whole FFP model needs to die. The biggest threat to Everton is not being able to spend the money they have. The whole system is flawed. Everton are a prime example, yes they have spent terribly but so what it's been bankrolled. It's the only way to try to break into the top 6 with any consistency. FFP just maintains the status quo. Have a wage and transfer cap each season. Total spend of X million. That's fair play.

 

[Vanquish-Storm]

If a club has been found to be guilty, lets say next season, why do you think the punishment should be?

Points. Just don’t see how you can fine something that doesn’t have money or is losing a lot of money left right a centre.

I think the whole point of all this though is it should be a live system to help the clubs. Rather than “oh last season you broke the rules”

 

[montymint]

The whole FFP model needs to die. The biggest threat to Everton is not being able to spend the money they have. The whole system is flawed. Everton are a prime example, yes they have spent terribly but so what it's been bankrolled. It's the only way to try to break into the top 6 with any consistency. FFP just maintains the status quo. Have a wage and transfer cap each season. Total spend of X million. That's fair play.

The problem with that cap is that it still maintains status quo with the teams that are already stronger not requiring to spend as much to keep the squad in shape. Teams that need to strengthen will always be playing catch up!

 

[omnomnom]

Points. Just don’t see how you can fine something that doesn’t have money or is losing a lot of money left right a centre.

I think the whole point of all this though is it should be a live system to help the clubs. Rather than “oh last season you broke the rules”

Who says they dont have the money? They had the money when they spent silly money on hot garbage but when they are pulled up on it all of a sudden they are skint? lol no.

 

[BaZ87]

I mean, what’s £40m between friends?

It’s still 40% above the allowable limit *after* making a bunch of deductions for various extenuating circumstances. Try that defence next time you get a speeding ticket and see how far it gets you.

What's £39m? It's roughly 1.5 players wages over the 3 year accounting period. And it's only (less than) 40% before you look at the other covid losses Everton are accounting for. Everton have argued that covid losses aren't limited to no match day revenue and rebate paid to broadcasters. They have a very valid argument that the transfer market has been deflated and that has had a negative effect on transfer prices and their ability to sell players, hence the point about it only being a player or two's salary.

For arguments sake, had Everton been able to find a buyer for Digne 12-18 months earlier, that alone would have improved Everton's finances for this period by £25-30m. Even giving another player away (Delph for example) on a free transfer and Everton would have been within the PL's limits. It is not unrealistic for Everton to claim that covid prevented them doing those deals.

Everton are a basket case club, they've been run incredibly poorly and have been incredibly fortunate that covid has hit because had the 19/20 and 20/21 accounting periods been included independently rather than an average of the two taken then Everton would have been in a pickle now. Despite all that they have a very strong argument that they have met the PL's profit and sustainability limits or at least been very close to meeting them. This is why the PL haven't hit them with a charge but instead directly or indirectly put spending limits on them for the past 12 months or so.