Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

[HungryHippos]

The big issue with creating these buffer states is that Russia doesn't want them to succeed without relying on them, and they also don't like them having governments that aren't leaning towards being as corrupt as they themselves are.

The countries under USSR rule by and large were poor places to live compared to the main European countries, and sooner or later people realise it and don't want to scratch out an existence on the whims of Russia.

 

[Rroff]

The big issue with creating these buffer states is that Russia doesn't want them to succeed without relying on them, and they also don't like them having governments that aren't leaning towards being as corrupt as they themselves are.

The countries under USSR rule by and large were poor places to live compared to the main European countries, and sooner or later people realise it and don't want to scratch out an existence on the whims of Russia.

Personally I think this is a huge aspect of the current invasion - Putin just couldn't bare to see it as it undermines everything his regime is built on.

 

[MattTheTall77]

Belarus is definitely an interesting one in this, they do appear to be preparing for something but maybe it's just stalling, Russia must be very unhappy with the lack of Belarusian direct support, though they are guilty of allowing Russia access and seemingly throwing some kind of support behind them.

Have Belarus officially sent any units into the fight? or is it Belarusians dressed as Russians?

I was wondering the other day what Belarusian soldiers are thinking at the moment, whether they're getting details of how badly things are going and thankful they didn't get pushed in. And if they are accessing videos, and probably reports from people involved, what their response would be if given orders in future.

 

[HungryHippos]

Fundamentally it's the boots on the ground that probably don't want this war on either side, I hope/think that Belarus will remain out of it, but they're already a victim of the sanctions and pressure from Putin must be extremely high to take action.

Lukashenka only has his position because Putin says so, and if they wanted to, Russia could attempt to absorb Belarus and there isn't really anyone that will stand up for them in the same way countries have stood up for Ukraine.

All he needs is a rigged referendum and bobs your uncle, vote to join Russia succeeded. I suspect this is the goal all along with the Donbas by the way. "Liberate" then absorb later.

 

[Rroff]

I was wondering the other day what Belarusian soldiers are thinking at the moment, whether they're getting details of how badly things are going and thankful they didn't get pushed in. And if they are accessing videos, and probably reports from people involved, what their response would be if given orders in future.

I don't know how big they are (especially after crackdowns in recent years) or how much support they have within the population but there is a not insignificant number of dissidents in Belarus and supposedly partisans forces prepared to make a move against the government if they take them into a war on Russia's behalf.

 

[Freddie1980]

Fundamentally it's the boots on the ground that probably don't want this war on either side, I hope/think that Belarus will remain out of it, but they're already a victim of the sanctions and pressure from Putin must be extremely high to take action.

Lukashenka only has his position because Putin says so, and if they wanted to, Russia could attempt to absorb Belarus and there isn't really anyone that will stand up for them in the same way countries have stood up for Ukraine.

All he needs is a rigged referendum and bobs your uncle, vote to join Russia succeeded. I suspect this is the goal all along with the Donbas by the way. "Liberate" then absorb later.

He'll keep the Donbas regions "independent" i.e. not submerged into the Russian federation so he can conscript all the men of the fighting age into the local separatist militias (Russian law prevents conscripted soldiers from being pressed into front line action, he might feel if he changes the law it might lead to a revolt against him).

 

[melmac]

I have posted this article from The Guardian previously, it's worth a read.
It was written on Feb 28th so around the start of this invasion.

It does bring to light some facts what a lot here seem totally unware of or just plain denial.

Now of course this is just an opinion of the person who wrote it so in no way will everyone see it in the same way.

I answered you about that article you keep referencing, but, of course you ignored my post because it highlighted how inaccurate you were.

I suggest you go look at the Guardian link again, it's there at the top left of the page in red letters "OPINION" It's an opinion piece not facts. Do you understand the difference? It's the Author's opinion. And it's like all opinion pieces, it's designed to provoke a reaction. You see it leaves out several important details. Here I will quote some of my last post instead of writing it all out again.

The NATO situation is a lot more complex than that opinion article suggests. And it conveniently leaves out the fact that Russia Invaded in 2014. That Ukraine didn't want to join any military bloc until after that. That public opinion in Ukraine went from overwhelmingly against Joining Nato before 2014 to overwhelmingly for joining since 2014. That Zelenskyy has been pushing to join NATO since he got elected.

Did you also know that in 2010, Ukraine had passed a law in their parliament that stopped them joining any military bloc. So the Ukrainian people were against joining NATO, the Government had passed laws to that effect. Yet, in 2014 Russia Invaded anyway and took over Crimea. That fear of further invasions is what prompted Ukraine to really push hard to join NATO.

 

[HungryHippos]

He'll keep the Donbas regions "independent" i.e. not submerged into the Russian federation so he can conscript all the men of the fighting age into the local separatist militias (Russian law prevents conscripted soldiers from being pressed into front line action, he might feel if he changes the law it might lead to a revolt against him).

It will be Russian in all but name in any event, and you can bet he'll bleed it dry of whatever resources he can get his hands on!

 

[Amnesia]

I answered you about that article you keep referencing, but, of course you ignored my post because it highlighted how inaccurate you were.

I suggest you go look at the Guardian link again, it's there at the top left of the page in red letters "OPINION" It's an opinion piece not facts. Do you understand the difference? It's the Author's opinion. And it's like all opinion pieces, it's designed to provoke a reaction. You see it leaves out several important details. Here I will quote some of my last post instead of writing it all out again.

The NATO situation is a lot more complex than that opinion article suggests.......

Ahem...

I have posted this article from The Guardian previously, it's worth a read.
It was written on Feb 28th so around the start of this invasion.

It does bring to light some facts what a lot here seem totally unware of or just plain denial.

Now of course this is just an opinion of the person who wrote it so in no way will everyone see it in the same way.

lol

 

[Amnesia]

You don't distinguish though between where NATO has made overtures and what Ukraine has done. Despite the position NATO took and invitations of the 2008 era Ukraine legislated against joining external security alliances, allowing only for cooperative partnerships and that was upheld even by more Western leaning leaders until Russian actions in 2014 (maybe that was used as an excuse who knows).

Ukraine–NATO relations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Relations with Ukraine

A strong, independent Ukraine is vital for the stability of the Euro-Atlantic area. Relations between NATO and Ukraine date back to the early 1990s and have since developed into one of the most substantial of NATO’s partnerships. Since 2014, in the wake of Russia’s illegal annexation of Crimea...

www.nato.int

Every step since has been in response to Russian actions (ostensibly) with the constant large scale Russian build ups and draw downs of the 2019-2021 era being responsible for pushing Ukraine towards more directly getting involved with NATO - even in the 2021 meetings Ukraine stated any further [additional] steps towards NATO was contingent on new Russian actions.

Russia can mope about it - we can even split hairs about what was going on behind the scenes/agendas - but like with Finland and Sweden Russia has had a huge hand in propelling along its own nightmare.

Well I'm not going to sit here and defend Russia but not everything was done to avert the war and it should have been, now the Ukrainian people are paying the price.
America/NATO had it's own agenda weakening or even maybe attempting to defeat Russia in a proxy war.

This below is not a response to your post @Rroff

Now if I was a Ukrainian would I rather have a nasty neighbour next door who wants to dictate who I can be close friends with and what weapons I can have in my home OR... my wife and daughter starving/walking through various countries with nothing to own but what they can carry hoping some stranger will take them in and not repeatedly perv at them or worse rape them.
While I stay home and fight Americas proxy war and probably die on the battlefield doing so.....it's certainly not a hard choice.

and that ^^ doesn't even mention the devastion to Ukraine itself as a country and its economy, the debt to America the land stolen by Russia. Why would I ever pick the fight when a few concessions and dialogue could prevent this.

Nearly every poster in the thread doesn't give these people a mention or care for them, as it's all about woohooo more deaths. It's go look how these Russian guys blew up with the missile we just sent over to Ukraine.

People here carry on celebrating the Russian losses but do they forget that there is probably the same amount of Ukrainian losses too, my guess is that there are more losses on the Ukrainian side.
Logic would ask why would Ukrainian troops keep giving up their land and pulling back if they are killing the Russians ? I'm not claiming that Ukraine doesn't also have it's victories but looking at territory lost and gained I would have to say the Russians are getting more victories.

 

[alchal]

Your words don't say anything about me, they are a reflection of you.

How?
I'm not sticking up for a regime that mirrors nazi Germany.

 

[the wopster]

Well since every one of you argue with me....what does that say about you lot ?

Not me sweet cheeks, I look at your comments and laugh at how stupid they mostly are.

 

[Amnesia]

Not me sweet cheeks, I look at your comments and laugh at how stupid they mostly are.

Well if they are stupid you should easily be able to point out the flaws and provide evidence that counters the links I provide from the BBC, The Guardian, Reuters.
Provide evidence that explains how these news sources are wrong or have a biased view towards Russia.

 

[Jester*]

Now if I was a Ukrainian would I rather have a nasty neighbour next door who wants to dictate who I can be close friends with and what weapons I can have in my home OR... my wife and daughter starving/walking through various countries with nothing to own but what they can carry hoping some stranger will take them in and not repeatedly perv at them or worse rape them.
While I stay home and fight Americas proxy war and probably die on the battlefield doing so.....it's certainly not a hard choice.

This is exactly the problem. Why should it be a choice between those 2. Surely it should be, Ukraine gets left alone to develop as a country and gets to decide it's future.

Again you make it out like America is ordering the Ukrainians to fight. Zelensky has asked for arms to fight Russia, then effectively conscripted fighting age males to fight. None of this is Americas doing.

 

[Amnesia]

How?
I'm not sticking up for a regime that mirrors nazi Germany.

You need it explaining to you that your words reflect you as a person ?
They are your words, the same way your actions are also a reflection of you.

 

[Rroff]

People here carry on celebrating the Russian losses but do they forget that there is probably the same amount of Ukrainian losses too, my guess is that there are more losses on the Ukrainian side.
Logic would ask why would Ukrainian troops keep giving up their land and pulling back if they are killing the Russians ? I'm not claiming that Ukraine doesn't also have it's victories but looking at territory lost and gained I would have to say the Russians are getting more victories.

Or you can have a situation where one side just has the ability to keep feeding the meat grinder, at least for now, making for a long drawn out conflict with an ebb and flow of territory even if one side is killing them in large numbers. Russian losses are likely higher as Ukraine is mostly fighting from defended positions vs assaulting. At a per battle level Russia seems to be somewhat ahead but on a strategic level it looks like they are wearing themselves thin to do so and Ukraine may have the strategic upper hand - though I'd say it was too premature to be confident where that is heading in the future.

 

[Amnesia]

Surely it should be, Ukraine gets left alone to develop as a country and gets to decide it's future.

Of course that is how it should be.

Again you make it out like America is ordering the Ukrainians to fight. Zelensky has asked for arms to fight Russia, then effectively conscripted fighting age males to fight. None of this is Americas doing.

They cannot order Ukrainians to fight but without the backing of America this fight wouldn't be happening.

 

[Amnesia]

Russian losses are likely higher as Ukraine is mostly fighting from defended positions vs assaulting.

Yup you're right, that slipped my mind when I wrote that.
You are correct the Russian losses are probably higher.


*EDIT*
as it turns out...the Russians are faring a fair bit better. kill ratio of 10:1 Yikes!

 

[melmac]

Ahem...




lol

You have been reference that Article as fact in a lot of your discussions with Rroff, Minstadave, Mr Jack, Minusorange and others. So, If you knew it was an opinion piece why continue to post it as actual evidence of anything?

And there is one thing you and the article keeps forgetting in all this. Ukraine did not want to join Nato. It was Russia's invasion in 2014 that changed that. Ukraine feared further attacks from Russia. Before 2014 the chances of Ukraine even getting into Nato were virtually none.

Fact is, Russia Invaded Ukraine twice. Putin and Russian Leadership have been insistent over the past 20 years that Ukraine is not a state. That the Russian and Ukrainian people are one. Putin Declared after 2014 that Kiev was the mother of all Russian Cities.

All this apologist talk that there wasn't enough done to prevent this war and that it's America's fault is horse manure. And forget all that other rubbish about it been a war against Nazi's. The real reason is in Russian history, Putin wants Ukraine back as part of Russia.

 

[Rroff]

Again you make it out like America is ordering the Ukrainians to fight. Zelensky has asked for arms to fight Russia, then effectively conscripted fighting age males to fight. None of this is Americas doing.

Unfortunately aside from the likes of Iran and India many countries, even China, would gain from Russia being bled dry. IMO the US is doing just enough to keep the conflict simmering.