Today's mass shooting in the US

Colonel_Klinck · 7 Jul 2022 at 15:59

ianh said:
So, again, your statement is.............

Which shows having an AR-15 isn't going to be enough to overthrow the US Government (a statement I agree with). However it's direct opposition to your other statement regarding the violent Jan 6th protestors who didn't have a single AR-15 amongst them............

So, again, which of your two statements is correct, because it can't be both?

Yes they did have AR15s. We heard the police radio messages last week. And they weren't attempting to overthrow a tyrannical government. They were attempting to back Trump in his desperate attempts to hang on to power. Taking on a true tyrannical government is something completely different. It would be like a small minority of the Chinese population attempting to overthrow the Communist party or Russian civilians take over from Putin. Good luck with that.

Colonel_Klinck · 7 Jul 2022 at 16:05

C Kent said:
I agree, the numerous videos posted to social media showing the people armed with flags presented a real threat. I'm sure glad the unarmed woman was shot and killed, those words she was shrieking could have really hurt that poor officer.

Why am I not surprised to hear you back those who violently stormed the Capitol. And there were people armed, we heard the police radio calls last week stating they'd spotted armed individuals in the crowd. I can imagine you being as supportive if say a group of Muslims stormed Parliament after an election calling to hang the PM and one got shot as they attempted to gain access to the chamber. You'd be backing the Muslims wouldn't you? :rolleyes:

Colonel_Klinck · 7 Jul 2022 at 16:20

Roar87 said:
Do you think "the military" is so single minded? This is the problem, a complete lack of critical thinking. In some world where a populace was rebelling against a government then you'd have some elements of the military likely on the side of the rebels, it wouldn't be the military vs civilians. Yes I do think this scenario is incredibly unlikely, it's essentially the last part of the checks and balances put in place by the US Constitution.

Either the military is with you or it isn't. If it is you don't need AR15s. If it isn't you aren't winning against them. What you are talking about is civil war, where part of the military is with you, part isn't. In which case you'll still need military grade equipment beyond rifles to take on the opposition. Can you honestly see a civil war breaking out in the US?
The 2nd Amendment worked when it was written, the US didn't have a standing army and the founders didn't want a standing army and wanted even less to pay to equip it. So having men of fighting age equipped through their own pocket for war made sense. They'd also just overthrown a tyrannical government, the British, so again that made sense. It makes no sense being so broad in 2022. The Constitution should be updated as time goes on. Its been updated 27 times already so it clearly wasn't a perfect document, no reason why it shouldn't be updated again. Though there is zero chance of that as America is so polarised now that I can't imagine any amendment passing.

potatolord · 7 Jul 2022 at 16:32

You two should have a duel to resolve this.

Ianh gets an AR15 and RIP rounds, Colonel Klinck gets a CND badge and sandals.

GO!

Scougar · 7 Jul 2022 at 17:04

So I am delusional now? Was there any reason for you to be so rude? I certainly wasn't rude to you Klinck.

Any uprising would likely be guerilla and difficult to counter. The US is unlikely to want to bomb it's own infrastructure for example. The US is highly in favor of modern vs modern. No modern army is setup to counter overthrow.

We can disagree, but I am merely stating reason why these guns still exist. The constitution. It is a right, so a tyranical government can be stood against. That's it. Argue till your teeth fall out whether any uprising would win or not, but that is the reason. It isn't to "hunt boar". Those are just arguments in order to try and protect the right. That's it.

My actual opinion, is that the guns are out of control and far to easy to get. They enable causing deaths far too easily. Something needs to be done.

Vulcan · 7 Jul 2022 at 17:52

dod said:
As far as I'm aware the AR15 style rifle is a direct derivative of the military version with the full automatic function removed. You can play with words all you like.

Why are they cowards? Maybe not quite the right word but I've spent my whole life round gamekeepers. I can assure you that none of them require a semi auto rifle to cull pests.

I'm far from being a vegetarian and even if I was, what difference would that make? Introducing a non-related argument, presumably intended as a slur, doesn't make your point any stronger.

You've misread what I said about clubs. I'm meaning use the rifles in clubs, not bring the boar to the club.

You're the one playing with words, describing a civilian rifle as "military grade".

I asked if you were a vegetarian because you called the people killing boar cowards, which if you didn't eat meat would make sense.

When you have hundreds of boar to kill, a semi-auto rifle is best, as soon as the first shot is fired the rest will bolt.

Colonel_Klinck · 7 Jul 2022 at 19:07

potatolord said:
You two should have a duel to resolve this.

Ianh gets an AR15 and RIP rounds, Colonel Klinck gets a CND badge and sandals.

GO!

I owned guns. I was bought up in the countryside, my dad owned shotguns and a .22 rifle. I worked on a dairy farm on weekend and holidays and used to shoot on their land and other local farmers land. Had a shotgun certificate at 16 till 22 when I moved to London and gave it up. I'm not anti gun, when I was in Brno 4 years ago I went to a gun club where you could shoot just about any gun https://www.triggerservice.cz/en/. Clearly though guns are a problem in America, something in their society is broken to the point they like to kill each other in numbers that are more 3rd world than 1st world. Lots of other counties have liberal gun laws but don't have the problems America does.

Colonel_Klinck · 7 Jul 2022 at 19:15

Scougar said:
So I am delusional now? Was there any reason for you to be so rude? I certainly wasn't rude to you Klinck.

Any uprising would likely be guerilla and difficult to counter. The US is unlikely to want to bomb it's own infrastructure for example. The US is highly in favor of modern vs modern. No modern army is setup to counter overthrow.

We can disagree, but I am merely stating reason why these guns still exist. The constitution. It is a right, so a tyranical government can be stood against. That's it. Argue till your teeth fall out whether any uprising would win or not, but that is the reason. It isn't to "hunt boar". Those are just arguments in order to try and protect the right. That's it.

My actual opinion, is that the guns are out of control and far to easy to get. They enable causing deaths far too easily. Something needs to be done.

My intension wasn't to be rude. I just find the idea of armed citizens taking on a tyrannical government in America to be crazy. Law enforcement is trigger happy now, just imagine how one sided it would be with a truly tyrannical regime. Though America has plenty of problems atm, guns isn't no1, political division and a growing percentage of the public who refuse to accept reality seems to me to be the no1 problem.

potatolord · 7 Jul 2022 at 19:35

Colonel_Klinck said:
I owned guns. I was bought up in the countryside, my dad owned shotguns and a .22 rifle. I worked on a dairy farm on weekend and holidays and used to shoot on their land and other local farmers land. Had a shotgun certificate at 16 till 22 when I moved to London and gave it up. I'm not anti gun, when I was in Brno 4 years ago I went to a gun club where you could shoot just about any gun https://www.triggerservice.cz/en/. Clearly though guns are a problem in America, something in their society is broken to the point they like to kill each other in numbers that are more 3rd world than 1st world. Lots of other counties have liberal gun laws but don't have the problems America does.

Sorry, that was intended as a joke.

Yep, the US has a severe gun problem that shows up in their homicide figures.

I just don't see they'll ever regulate enough to reduce that.

C Kent · 7 Jul 2022 at 19:36

Colonel_Klinck said:
My intension wasn't to be rude. I just find the idea of armed citizens taking on a tyrannical government in America to be crazy. Law enforcement is trigger happy now, just imagine how one sided it would be with a truly tyrannical regime. Though America has plenty of problems atm, guns isn't no1, political division and a growing percentage of the public who refuse to accept reality seems to me to be the no1 problem.

So on one hand half of the population being armed makes no difference as they wouldn't stand a chance, but on the other hand a small armed and violent mob nearly over threw a democratically elected government?

Vulcan · 7 Jul 2022 at 20:28

Colonel_Klinck said:
Had a shotgun certificate at 16 till 22 when I moved to London and gave it up.

Ah, traded it in for knife to fit in with the locals?

Rroff · 7 Jul 2022 at 20:32

Longbow said:
Ah, traded it in for knife to fit in with the locals?

One of my notable memories of living in London was some guy staggering down the middle of the road shooting into the air with a shotgun.

He was pretty fortunate I think the police seemed to know him and what was going on (he'd had a bad break up with his missus and got very drunk apparently).

dod · 7 Jul 2022 at 21:13

Longbow said:
When you have hundreds of boar to kill, a semi-auto rifle is best, as soon as the first shot is fired the rest will bolt.

It’s very difficult to hit a smallish, fast moving target with a rifle. What you’re advocating is pretty much spray and pray, not responsible hunting.

Maybe that’s what happens in the US but it wouldn’t be tolerated here.

Colonel_Klinck · 8 Jul 2022 at 09:11

Longbow said:
Ah, traded it in for knife to fit in with the locals?

when in Rome :cry:

Colonel_Klinck · 8 Jul 2022 at 09:13

Rroff said:
One of my notable memories of living in London was some guy staggering down the middle of the road shooting into the air with a shotgun.

He was pretty fortunate I think the police seemed to know him and what was going on (he'd had a bad break up with his missus and got very drunk apparently).

Things didn't end so well for the poor sod carrying a table leg wrapped in plastic..

GreatAuk · 18 Jul 2022 at 12:34

The Texas house committee report on Uvlade is available now, if anyone's interested:

Read the complete Uvalde school shooting report by Texas House committee here

Read the complete Uvalde shooting report by the Texas House committee investigating the law enforcement response to the shooting at Robb Elementary.

eu.statesman.com

Not read the whole thing but I think this probably summarises it:

Other than the attacker, the Committee did not find any “villains” in the course of its
investigation. There is no one to whom we can attribute malice or ill motives. Instead, we
found systemic failures and egregious poor decision making

I saw some tweets about there being 400 officers on scene before the shooter was taken out. I don't think there's anything in the report that actually says that, so think it's probably an exaggeration based on the report listing 376 law enforcement officers who responded to the incident (with no distinction made about how many arrived before and after the shooter was dead).

ianh · 18 Jul 2022 at 13:53

dod said:
Maybe that’s what happens in the US but it wouldn’t be tolerated here.

Killing pigs/boar is classed as "pest control" rather than hunting in Texas, so trying to get a humane kill isn't even considered whilst "spray and pray" is very much the order of business, even involving multiple shooters all shooting from a Heliopter, use of full auto weapons (7.62mm minigun!) and even .50BMG rifles etc from the videos I've seen.

Werewolf · 18 Jul 2022 at 15:47

I was seeing that the police had their own mass shooting.

Apparently they had what they thought was an armed suspect, so fired into the crowd.

The police hit 5 bystanders, the "suspect" didn't fire a shot.

Rroff · 20 Jul 2022 at 07:21

Just seen a video of police in the US arresting some guy when his 4 year old son gets hold of his gun and shoots at the cops... absolutely horrifying moment where they are trying to work out who is shooting, trying to make sure the other cops know it is a kid and try and find a solution which doesn't end up with them having to shoot a 4 year old.

Father has been convicted of child abuse amongst over the incident.

deuse · 20 Jul 2022 at 12:04

Rroff said:
Just seen a video of police in the US arresting some guy when his 4 year old son gets hold of his gun and shoots at the cops... absolutely horrifying moment where they are trying to work out who is shooting, trying to make sure the other cops know it is a kid and try and find a solution which doesn't end up with them having to shoot a 4 year old.

Father has been convicted of child abuse amongst over the incident.

Why don't you tell the whole story?
Or even get it right?

"The incident began when the boy's father threatened restaurant employees with a gun in the drive-thru because his order was messed up. When officers arrived, they began detaining the man when his 4-year-old boy grabbed his gun and shot at officers. "