Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

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Amnesia said:
No the Russians are saying the Americans are directly involved in the war by supplying targeting information.

I expect any responses will be along the lines of 'he is twisting our words', 'this proves he is a Russian shill', 'we didn't mean that', 'So you think rape is ok', 'He tries to do a gotcha', 'Nobody made that argument'.
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is there something inherently more objectionable about supplying a friendly nation with information about their own territory than in supplying that nation with weapons of war?

what would be different about gifting information, as opposed to gifting equipment, like whatever sneaky satellite systems they're using to get that information in the first place?
 
Grim5 said:
Ukraine seems to be getting more confident with HIMARS, launching with 4 close to each other and in broad daylight
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On the flip side, I guess it makes resupply quicker and easier, as well as easier to defend as they can concentrate more anti air into a smaller area.

Plus, 30 seconds after that video you can bet they were already on the move to a new location.
 
Jester* said:
So what exactly is their point?

Countries take sides, supply weapons and munitions and information. All of what they are saying is plainly obvious
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lol America and Ukraine are denying this.

You are openly calling Ukraine and America liars and saying it's plainly obvious that Russia are telling the truth.

You may want to backtrack a little bit.
 
While not doubting there has been under the table, 'have a look here' info, the truth is we won't find out for sure for a very long time. So the onus is on Russia to proof it.
I actually reckon the majority of the info probably comes from the many thousands of Ukrainians who now find their homes are in occupied territory and while not actively fighting are providing a more impactful role moving on info. Lots of Russian trucks moving in and out of a farm 24/7? Ping it to the Ukrainian army to look into further. Lots of men with enough medals you could melt them down for a suit of armour and guards taken over that nice villa your neighbours used to own? Ping it to the Army.

Edit: Also worth pointing out there are lots of satellite imagery companies about that update regularly so you don't necessarily need access to the top of the line spy stuff the US no doubt has floating up there. Open source folks have been using them throughout, be silly to think Ukraine isn't using every tool at their disposal to do the same.
 
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The Russians are very unlikely to "know"* anything, they can make educated guesses as everyone else can

* would likely require a high up intelligence officer being a spy

As sounds more likely the direct US government input is limiting usage of weapons they supply. As discussed a long time ago, will be part of the supply contract in regards on going support and by default they would have to either be 100% trusting, or require some oversight.

There is however quite a gap between direct outright "punch these coords into the HIMARs" to "those coords you gave us do seem to backup your thoughts"

And anyway who cares. The vast majority on here would I am sure support the US pushing this to its limits
 
At this point it doesn’t seem the US even cares. It’s on Russia to prove it which they can’t and other than nuclear options there’s nothing they can do either. Perhaps before this war the west would have been more cautious, but now we’ve seen their hand with most of their cards nullified by corruption.
 
Mercenary Keyboard Warrior said:
And anyway who cares. The vast majority on here would I am sure support the US pushing this to its limits
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Exactly. Personally I don't think it's that big a deal exactly how much steer the US gives Ukraine and whether it is limited to vetoing targets or not.

Russia just using it as yet another reason to cry about how unfair it is that their murdering soldiers are getting shot at. If they don't want Ukraine shooting their stuff then maybe they should move it out of Ukraine.

In terms of 'escalation' it's all a long way from NATO troops actually doing the fighting themselves.
 
Amnesia said:
lol America and Ukraine are denying this.

You are openly calling Ukraine and America liars and saying it's plainly obvious that Russia are telling the truth.

You may want to backtrack a little bit.
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Not really, the US always stipulated there would be certain limitations to HIMARS, hence keeping ATACMS back for the moment. Information sharing and intelligence gathering is happening and being provided to Ukraine. So is it not obvious there would be communication between US and UKR military officials for targets? Russia are just trying to twist the narrative to support that they are fighting the US and not Ukraine and that Ukraine are a Western puppet.

Devil is in the detail and the words, this war is as much about words as anything else. Again Russia cannot claim they are in a proxy war, when they fail to admit they are in a war to begin with.

Russia are not telling the truth, they are just bending what they can to enforce a narrative. More than likely to try and convince its own population.
 
Jester* said:
Not really,
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So first denial but then you go on to say


Jester* said:
Information sharing and intelligence gathering is happening and being provided to Ukraine. So is it not obvious there would be communication between US and UKR military officials for targets?
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Again confirming that the Americans are gathering intelligence and sharing this with Ukraine in regards to targets, giving credence to Russias claims.



Jester* said:
Russia are not telling the truth,
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but in a previous post you said what the Russians claimed was plainly obvious.
Jester* said:
So what exactly is their point?

Wars have been fought like this for a long time. Countries take sides, supply weapons and munitions and information. All of what they are saying is plainly obvious
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Honesty not one of your strong points I guess, oh well maybe you are good at making cornflakes.
 
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It strikes me as a cope from the Russians: “No, it’s not really this country that we enjoy a massive advantage over in terms of weapons, equipment and manpower fighting our once much vaunted army to a standstill, it’s the Americans”
 
Amnesia said:
So first denial but then you go on to say



Again confirming that the Americans are gathering intelligence and sharing this with Ukraine in regards to targets




but in the previous post you said what the Russians claimed was plainly obvious.



Honesty not one of your strong points I guess, oh well maybe you are good at making cornflakes.
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Ok i'll make this simple for you.

Using the following article. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62389537

Russian quote " A spokesperson for Moscow's defence ministry alleged the US was approving targets for American-made Himars artillery used by Kyiv's forces.
Lt Gen Igor Konashenkov said intercepted calls between Ukrainian officials revealed the link. The BBC could not independently verify this."

Translation.

Ukraine: Hi US, we'd really like to target XYZ please give us the green light.
US: We approve, drop the pain.

Pentagon quote " A spokesperson for the Pentagon said it provided the Ukrainians with "detailed, time-sensitive information to help them understand the threats they face and defend their country against Russian aggression".

Translation

US: Oh hi Ukraine, we've had some super duper satellite recon that shows a target XYZ and we thought you might like to know.
Ukraine: Cheers US, we'll drop the pain on it.

There is a clear and concise difference to each side of the narrative. None of us know which is true. So please give it a rest.
 
I was sort of sure by this point that Russia would have resorted to nuclear weapons, but I guess they'd lose the value of the threat when they make their sham votes on accession.

I hope the language being used is extra juicy when it comes to the consequences for Russia's allies if the Kremlin does end up going down that road though, especially the likes of Iran.
 
Amnesia said:
I had already said my last words on it and you didn't need to quote any article as the discussion was about what you said, where you flip flopped back and forth.
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You realise that the West has been sharing intel since the war began right? Along with weapons, ammunition, medical supplies, food etc etc. Roff has posted many times of AWACS constantly up and flying, satellites will be taking photos practically on a minute by minute basis.

None of what I have said contradicts itself.

Using a quote from the article you yourself linked

"Russia’s defence ministry claimed Washington was “directly involved” in the war, and had passed on intelligence that had led to the “mass deaths of civilians”. The US was responsible for rocket attacks by Kyiv on populated areas in the eastern Donbas and in other regions, it said.
“All this undeniably proves that Washington, contrary to White House and Pentagon claims, is directly involved in the conflict in Ukraine,” the ministry said in a statement."

Russia isn't saying that look the US are supplying information, how shocked the world should be. They are directly trying to attribute that information to the deaths of civilians. To try and put the US under pressure to halt or reduce or even change whatever policy for information sharing they have. Again parts of Russia are calling it a war, some calling it a special military operation.

"He said excellent satellite imagery and real-time information had helped. He denied US officials were providing direct targeting information. But he acknowledged there was consultation between US and Ukrainian intelligence officials before strikes, so Washington could vet and if necessary veto intended targets."

This quote from Vadym Skibitsky, Ukraine’s acting deputy head of military intelligence. Also from the article posted by yourself indicates that yes the US is sharing intelligence. But what they aren't doing is sending targetting packages to dial into HIMARS so the Ukranians just hit fire. The last part is still common knowledge as regards to what I said previously, US doesn't want to dump ordinance into Russia or potentially high civilian areas for the exact reason the above Russian Defence Ministry quote claims, deaths of civilians.

I am more than happy to debate this with you. But you cannot go around trying to call people out, then just say deal with what I said and attempt to ditch and run.
 
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