Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

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Lend Lease was a huge boon to the USA (and also to the UK); why? Of the aircraft the UK sent a lot of fighters - a few old model Spitfires and a lot of old model Hurricanes, as new kit arrived (Mustangs, the newest uk fighters) the old stuff went east; USA sent 50% of Airacobra and Kingcobra production to Russia along with the bulk of the A20 Havoc production. Same with tanks - UK got latest Shermans, we shipped off Valentines, Matilda's and Churchills , use sent M3 Lee`s and older model shermans.
 
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ICDP said:
Like I said, not enough to affect the outcome of the early stages of the German invasion. Lend Lease helped when it got in to full swing but it was not pivotal during mid to late 1941, when the Russians managed to blunt the German army and even by mid 1942 start turning the tide.
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I think an important distinction here is that it was mostly Ukrainian's blunting Germany's advance. The weirdest part about this is how Russia with it's relatively smaller losses was nigh on permanently damaged whilst Ukraine maintained a high degree of intellectual might such that it was essentially the heart of USSR engineering.
 
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The other argument about lend lease is; why did the USA move away from loans and go to grants for foreign aid? China have run with the loan model for their `foreign aid` - all secured against the collateral of a country (that is, the land)
 
Chris Wilson said:
And as usual we dash in and disturb that status quo thinking we are their saviours, whereas we just make another rod for our own back. Why the hell we keep interfering in other people's problems only to further exacerbate our (more than sufficient) own, I don't know. Gadaffi plainly told us what fiddling about with him in Libya would unleash, and he was spot on. Whilst unable to control the emptying of Africa into the west we go and poke another hornet's nest.
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You can always bury your head in the sand (not my problem attitude), until the problem gets to you and maybe is too late to do something about it (game over), or the consequences of your inaction are fare worse. Or do you thing the conflict would have stopped with the fall of Ukraine?
 
Harlequin said:
Lend Lease was a huge boon to the USA (and also to the UK); why? Of the aircraft the UK sent a lot of fighters - a few old model Spitfires and a lot of old model Hurricanes, as new kit arrived (Mustangs, the newest uk fighters) the old stuff went east; USA sent 50% of Airacobra and Kingcobra production to Russia along with the bulk of the A20 Havoc production. Same with tanks - UK got latest Shermans, we shipped off Valentines, Matilda's and Churchills , use sent M3 Lee`s and older model shermans.
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The stuff the British and Americans sent in mid-late 1942 was not much worse than the Russians own aircraft at this point. Cast off P-39s, P-40s and Hurricanes and valentine tanks etc. what really mattered was trucks, jeeps fuel etc. The real things that help win wars.
 
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ICDP said:
The stuff the British and Americans sent in mid-late 1942 was not much worse than the Russians own aircraft at this point. Cast off P-39s, P-40s and Hurricanes and valentine tanks etc. what really mattered was trucks, jeeps fuel etc. The real things that help win wars.
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The Russians loved the Cobras and the `Hawks it meant they could get the Ill2 right for the ground role. I would argue though it wanst until 1944 with the Yak 3 (then later the Yak 9 ), and the La-7 (better than anything else under 30000 feet). Ofc though, like every war , logistics wins it
 
ICDP said:
The stuff the British and Americans sent in mid-late 1942 was not much worse than the Russians own aircraft at this point. Cast off P-39s, P-40s and Hurricanes and valentine tanks etc. what really mattered was trucks, jeeps fuel etc. The real things that help win wars.
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You can have all the light trucks in the world (sort of) but if the enemy has free use of the air it won't matter. Something I think it often overlooked yes the 100s of thousands of logistic and light fighting vehicles, etc. were crucial but we sent a lot of frontline heavy planes and vehicles (even if becoming obsolete compared to our latest gear).
 
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I’d argue just as, if not more important was the intel provided by our code breakers that told the Russians exactly where the Germans were gathering and when/where they were going to attack.

We’ve seen in this war, again, just how important intel is, even in the early days when Ukraine was less equipped.
 
ICDP said:
Like I said, not enough to affect the outcome of the early stages of the German invasion. Lend Lease helped when it got in to full swing but it was not pivotal during mid to late 1941, when the Russians managed to blunt the German army and even by mid 1942 start turning the tide.

I’m not trying to claim Russia would have pushed the Germans back as effectively without the lend-lease act. I’m trying to show that claiming the USA lend lease saved their ass is not necessarily accurate.

I have no love for Russia or the soviets and do not see them as the “good guys” in WWII. But neither am I trying to convince myself the west saved their butts with lend lease. Russia ensured their own survival before lend-lease had got into any meaningful swing but lend-lease certainly sped up the ultimate defeat of Germany in the East. Of that there is no doubt.
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I'm a little leery because it isn't something I've a huge amount of knowledge on but I've always been lead to believe it was significantly the weather which helped the Soviets blunt Operation Barbarossa, those supplies as part of the Soviet-Anglo agreement were significant in helping to replace losses from the late 41 counter-offensive.
 
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ICDP said:
Edit: I felt it worth elaborating a fair bit.

A brief history lesson on why Russia were never the good guys in WWII. Russia helped invade Poland as part of their pact with Germany. Russia did to countries like Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and Finland what the Nazis had done to Austria and Czechoslovakia. Those small countries were effectively bullied into becoming Russian states and then undesirables were eliminated (that’s a polite way of putting it).

Their tactics worked on Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia because they were too weak to do anything about it. Finland resisted and in early 1940 we had the so called winter war. In fact when Russia did this to Finland, Britain and France were ready to intervene but Sweden would not allow their forces safe passage to reinforce Finland. So little known fact that even after WWII started against Germany, that Russia almost ended up on the same side as Germany (by default). Also on a side note Mussolini had offered to ally with France and Britain against Germany, if they allowed them parts of Africa and the Balkans (this offer was refused)

Russia in WWII were to put it simply “useful idiots”. They were as evil as the Nazis and ultimately these two horrible evil regimes ended up in an inevitable conflict. Russia bore the brunt of German ground forces for essentially the entire war from mid 1941. Some people here posted that the Western Allies took a lot of the pressure off Russia in Africa and eventually Italy and of course France. Though from memory the majority of German ground forces (75% - 80%) were always engaged against Russia and that includes during and after D-Day.

Post WWII Russia basically had all of Eastern Europe and half of Germany as their “spoils” because despite that war starting because of the invasion of Poland, ironically Britain and the USA hung them out to dry when the dust settled.

Russia were not the good guys, it was more the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
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I think this is a good post, but really it misses the point a bit since the average Russian citizen didn't decide Stalins foreign policy, Russians paid a horrible price to defeat Nazi Germany. That's what their V Day parade is about. I think the Russians and Germans treated each other like animals, but learning about WW2 makes you understand why we is horrible and why we should be looking to end this one asap.
 
Harlequin said:
The other argument about lend lease is; why did the USA move away from loans and go to grants for foreign aid? China have run with the loan model for their `foreign aid` - all secured against the collateral of a country (that is, the land)
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And lucrative contracts such as port authority control, resource extraction operation rights etc.
 
I always understood that without the Royal Navy and the US Navy (and no doubt others) that the supplies needed for the Russians to keep fighting the Nazis would never arrived, and their war lost (and then potentially ours).

Point is and as above, it was an allied effort (also can see a lot of this has been covered above..).

On a different note I read that the Rusians bombed the place where the Ukrainian Eurovision outfit came from, as they performed. Obv I can't confirm this but if it wasn't so sad I mean, it just strikes me as one of the most pathhetic and childish things I have read of late. As mentioned though I have not looked this morning as yet so don't know 100%.
 
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ICDP said:
Edit, apologies sanex1 I see you edited your post to include the word probably. So my post was ultimately unnecessary :)

This is another common misconception on lend lease. It did of course help immensely but bear in mind that Germany invaded Russia before the USA entered the war in Dec 1941. Russia were only declared eligible for lend lease in Nov 1941 (6 months after Germany invaded). By the time the USA entered the war in Dec 1941, Germany had already burnt itself out trying to take Moscow and once they had failed to do so, a long protracted war with Russia was all but guaranteed (note, Germany had still not fully mobilised until 1942).

The majority of lend lease stuff did not start appearing until mid to late 1942, of course some was delivered earlier but not enough to impact the course of the war in the east during its most critical stage. By the time lend lease material had arrived in significant numbers, Russia had already ground the Germans into a stalemate and were starting to more than hold their own.

I’m no fan of soviet Russia but it seems to be a common theme that the west has always tried to take credit for “saving them” from almost certain defeat against the Nazis .
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The Russians faced 75-80% of Germany’s military might and destroyed it, leaving “Fortress Europe” defended by mostly injured, old or green troops.

Any claims that the Americans saved Russia or won the war in Europe on their own are beyond laughable.
 
n111ck said:
www.telegraph.co.uk

Brexit helped thwart Putin’s Ukraine invasion, says Jacob Rees-Mogg

Former Cabinet minister suggested Russia would strike 'mucky compromise' if UK was aligned with Brussels
www.telegraph.co.uk www.telegraph.co.uk

How many times must the UK save mainland Europe from itself..
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That is desperate - our foreign policy when it comes to militarily supporting or taking action against other countries has never been lockstep with Brussels see Syria for instance.

If anything Brexit was supposed to help Russia by sowing fragmentation in Europe to make it harder for there to be a unified wall against Russia.

EDIT: I'd go as far as to say it is laughable thinking Jacob Rees-Mogg has anything useful to say - like Farage he has never had this country's best interests in mind.
 
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Rroff said:
That is desperate - our foreign policy when it comes to militarily supporting or taking action against other countries has never been lock step with Brussels see Syria for instance.

If anything Brexit was supposed to help Russia by sowing fragmentation in Europe to make it harder for there to be a unified wall against Russia.
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Since when has Syria been in Europe?

You and Putin may have thought that Brexit was supposed to be beneficial to Russia but clearly the reverse is true, luckily for Ukraine..
 
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