Come on then, where's your source?
TfL might scrap London Day Rail Travelcards
- Thread starter CAT-THE-FIFTH
- Start date
Come on then, where's your source?
- Joined
- 9 Nov 2009
- Posts
- 25,749
- Location
- Planet Earth
The home counties such as Kent are net contributors to tax too,and also get less overall spent per capita compared to London and generally less pay. London tax contributions are also somewhat warped by the contributions of the financial district too. The high speed lines into London are mostly for the benefit of London,ie,easier to get workers and tourists into London. Those people end up spending money which benefits London, and general speaking increasingly prices for everything are rising as more Londoners move to the outer regions,so locals are getting sort of the short stick. But the issue all of this infrastructure is mostly paid via general taxation or higher fares for people in the home counties if they use the main line trains,even if you are not going into London or are forced to pass through it to go somewhere else,even in the same country(!). So you could argue people in places such as Kent are also subsidising London to some degree too but all you hear is Londoners saying they are subsidising people in the home counties. In Kent for example,the so called "high speed zone" starts from Ashford in Kent which is nowhere near London. That money should be better spent on improving other infrastructure too in the outlying regions. Then there are London centric infrastructure projects such as the Lee and Tideway tunnels,HS2,etc which are being funded via general taxation.
Last edited:
I don't actually disagree with any of this, in fact for a good few years I used HS1 myself. But it's not actually a zero sum game. The reason they spend money in London is because it's expected that doing so will ultimately generate more economic activity than spending it elsewhere. The effect of spending that money there can ultimately generate more money that you can spend in other areas. Like you could build the Elizabeth line through Canterbury but if it ends up being permanently underutilised then what's the point?
So imo you need to spend money outside of London, but stopping spending in London would be a false economy.
Last edited:
- Joined
- 9 Nov 2009
- Posts
- 25,749
- Location
- Planet Earth
Why are people not in London having to pay higher fares,or having to use arbitrary routes passing through London? This makes the journeys slower and more expensive. There used to be other routes a few years ago that didn't do this and are now gone.Even bus travel in that zone,is very expensive,because for some reason everyone thinks locals have London pay.
But Canterbury train travel is not affected by the so called "high speed tax" which is more a London tax pushed on anyone in Kent who is happens to be closer to London,but also won't get London weighted pay. So Khan might moan about Londoners subsidising Travelcards. But I suspect all the people in Kent,Essex,etc forced to pay higher fares for instructure which helps London,forced to pass through London to go to parts of the same county,etc are probably contributing directly or indirectly far more money to help London out than the so called Travelcard subsidy.
I have to yet see the Conservatives or Labour ask why suddenly there are arbitrary fare increases on the same rail lines and trains just because they are closer to London,even if you are going in the opposite direction? That is even with off-peak times. You are even paying this stealth tax even if you are not going into London. We all know ULEZ will eventually become a new congestion charge zone,and anyone travelling from outside London will pay it. Then on top of that Ashford International was supposed to mean people didn't need to go into London if they wanted to go into France. But OFC,in the end as usual that fell to pieces so,now its back to London getting more money.
OTH,a silver lining if all of this is maybe it will push more people in the home counties to start spending locally which will be better for the local economy.
Last edited:
For the first bit about having to go through London, I'd blame that Beeching fellow for that. But really the cost there is motivated by the fact that TFL is unusually fare heavy in terms of its funding compared to other transport systems which are actually more subsidy heavy.
On the ULEZ becoming a congestion charge thing, probably better to cross that bridge when we come to it otherwise it sounds like tilting at windmills.
On Ashford not getting international services, I agree that completely sucks. Pandemic seems to have hit Eurostar hard. I've got the same issue with Ebbsfleet (even if it is just a glorified parkway for Gravesend). Total waste of potential.
Yeah I think the incentives to redistribute geographically are no bad thing as well. Same thing with WFH, it should have been encouraged but seems like people with a stake in commercial property etc. have a lot of sway.
- Joined
- 9 Nov 2009
- Posts
- 25,749
- Location
- Planet Earth
In the last few years,there were alternate routes which didn't pass through London which were cut. Because we all know they could charge more for the routes which pass through London. OFC nobody can explain why regions which are not part of London/London weighted pay are being charged London weighted fares even if you are heading away from London. None of the political parties give a damn it seems. They seem to only care about the big cities IMHO.
OFC ULEZ will become a congestion charge like thing because all the infrastructure is there with ULEZ and the central regions of London where his voter base is strongest won't be affected because the public transport is functional and car ownership is low. The people in the outer boundaries are more likely to need a car anyway. Free money. No political risk for him personally.
I like to see what happens if Labour wins next year if they will fix any of this. They won't have the excuse anymore the Conservatives are blocking XYZ.
Last edited:
Labour's entire thing at the moment seems to be to say something along the lines of "well the Tories have screwed everything up so much that we have to do exactly what they would have done anyway" so I wouldn't hold my breath.
- Joined
- 9 Nov 2009
- Posts
- 25,749
- Location
- Planet Earth
It was like with New Labour,there were things they should have tried to fix but never bothered.
But I was also trying to imply if more of the home counties shift to Labour then there is even less excuse for them not to try and sort this out. OFC,like you I think they will just kick the bucket down the road for the next person to sort it out.
It makes me wonder how the UK has become almost US like in politics,where no longterm plans can move forward because everyone is spiting everyone else. But then I was against us copying the US in making so much stuff only accessible around the use of cars,not trains,buses,cycles or even walking. The US is a large country,the UK isn't.
In Europe,they have coalitions,swing from right to left,etc but countries like Germany and France seem to have had longterm plans WRT to public transport.
Last edited:
Travelcards combined with mainline are really expensive now though, for me at least. It's cheaper for me to buy non-travelcard tickets and then pay as I go using contactless for my normal commute (£5.60 on contactless whereas a day travelcard costs over £10 more than day return). And tbh that's if I go the lazy route of buying a return, it's cheaper using advance single tickets which you can't get a travelcard on even today. Buying advance tickets and using contactless for the tube costs over £30 less than buying a day travelcard.
Yes if you do extra journeys they add up, but there's a daily cap so it never gets too extreme, obviously if you are regularly doing many journeys then a travelcard makes sense.
Last edited:
Surely people commuting in from the home counties need to apportion blame at their national rail service for being so eye-wateringly expensive?
I'm assuming a zone 3-1 commute isn't impacted at all because using contactless will get you up to the daily price cap anyway
I'm assuming a zone 3-1 commute isn't impacted at all because using contactless will get you up to the daily price cap anyway
I guess the only way public transport becomes "profitable" is either through increases in ticket costs, or reducing expenditure. But the bottom line is that the taxpayer shouldn't be expected to pay for London's public transport. Whether the costs are recovered via local tickets or through people visiting from outside London (which sounds like what this move is attempting).