The Manchester United Club Thread **Sponsored by Comedy Central**
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What on earth do morals have to do with football. Clubs would hide a murder if their star player was involved and they could get away with it. Football has 0 morals beyond those its required to put up a facade of to maintain some level of palatability for the public.
At any rate, they know what the women will say. None of them will say anything but the pre-programmed response.
He was fundamentally not charged. He is innocent until proven outside of the court of public opinion. I think its probably safe to say what the reality of the situation is but United would be cutting him loose purely of their own choice and losing an asset that could be worth £100m+.
Most United fans won't really care and most opposition fans will care to the point of giving him grief whenever he plays.
Theres no good outcome to this. Does someone deserve to lose their career over something like this? I don't know. Thats getting into dangerous waters especially without a conviction.
My main hope is that he has learned from this and his partner has also learned and will not make the same mistake twice if he does...
I think this is where I am and you articulate it well. However, despite my sympathies with the lad and his partner I do think that United should cut ties. However, they try and spin it's not a good look to be seen as potentially condoning domestic violence. The problem really comes down to the way this played out on social media in such a public and unedifying way. Had this played out as an allegation, charge, subsequent dropping of the charges and romantic reconciliation (in relative privacy)then it would have been more credible to play a rehabilitation strategy. However, aa a Premier League footballer nothing will not be in the public eye or declared in the public interest. I'd hate to think of my daughters being in a position like Greenwoods's partner was and that colours my view that he has to be let go.
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Be interesting to see where everyone stands on Greenwood. Set up a straw poll.
I’m in the loan/reassess. Morals aside, he’s not played competitively for 18 months so who knows where he is at
strawpoll.com
I’m in the loan/reassess. Morals aside, he’s not played competitively for 18 months so who knows where he is at
Greenwood future - Online Poll - StrawPoll.com
What's your opinion? Vote now: Back in team ASAP, Never wear shirt again, Loan/reassess...
strawpoll.com
Good idea. I am the same really, I do have major reservations but I am not completely against him having another chance under the right circumstances.
Ahh the age old "morally bankrupt decisions have been made before" defense. The fact the footballing world has questionable morals should be used to justify the continuation of that behaviour, if anything it should be questioned. Heck, lets just allow racism to continue to be rife in football, it happens all the time!
What on earth are you on about "his partner has learned"? Learned what exactly? To stay quiet about domestic abuse? If she's fabricated this then he's a fool for continuing to be with her because she's tainted his career on purpose. I think it's more likely she's forgiven him for whatever reason. Don't forget fez (I don't think you've forgotten for what it's worth), the prosecution only dropped the case because an unlikely conviction due to the withdrawal of a key witness. Sexual assault cases are notoriously hard to convict for when the case revolves around the accused and the victim.
You can still be a Manchester United fan without scraping the barrel. Like £100m matters in the world of football, look at the loss made on Harry Maguire and that's before you even take into consideration that Mason Greenwood would ever be worth that amount. Perhaps he can move to a country whoes culture treats women as lesser beings?
I don't know who you are arguing with here but it ain't me. I am making no defense of anything, I am merely pointing out that suggesting a largely amoral industry should make a moral decision is just pointless. Whats racism got to do with this as well. Would United make loads of money if they became a racist club? I really don't understand what your point is there.
I thought the suggestion was pretty clear. I hope she has learned not to take him back if he does this again and I hope that she has learned that she must go through with prosecution if he does this again. I hope he has learned that his career is a fragile thing and he needs to change if he wants to have one.
You can't be serious. Even to the richest clubs, £100m matters. Maguire cost us £80m and played well for a few season and we are getting £50m for him. If the club could do it all again and not buy him and not lost £50m I'm sure they would, let alone £100m.
As to Greenwood being worth £100m. If a young player of his talents with no issues was on the open market he would 100% be around that figure. £100m is massive money.
Not sure that's a fair challenge to Fez. Ultimately we don't know what happened between the two of them. All we know is what was spun into the social media channels and there are many possible scenarios. That's actually the biggest issue with this whole thing - the fact that it played out so publicly which always jeopardising a fair treatment of victim and accused.
Caporegime
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Sympathies? For what?
You literally said:
Pretty clear from that rhetorical question that you believe football is exempt from acting with morality. If it has 0 morals, as you claim, do you think it should always be this way and we should continue to turn a blind eye to it because this player happens to be on United's wage bill? I also work for a business and we have values that I not only adhere to, but I live by. Generating money isn't an excuse. Referring here to the fact the player has a monetary value to the club as some weird excuse to allow him to continue playing.
Come on fez, you're not stupid. Racism plagues football, there's a whole campaign against it. The point is, if you're willing to accept that football is amoral (your words), then should we just continue to accept racism in the sport?
Honestly, **** me. Are you really typing this stuff? How about we talk about Mason Greenwood learning violence towards women isn't acceptable rather than the victim learning how to react to it.
Either way I'm done, I'm not debating with someone who thinks this is acceptable.
They are very young, possibly haven't come from the best backgrounds and are thrust into a world of incredible wealth and public scrutiny. Everyone makes mistakes and I think you can have sympathy with them for not being able to handle the situation. Don't get me wrong, I'm not excusing any bad or unlawful behaviour that may have taken place but these are kids living in a very abnormal situation.
Soldato
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Braving throwing my voice into the ring between you two but I feel I need to get this off my chest as it's been percolating a while and this is what forums are for I guess...
I think Fez is right about the clubs won't use morals as their guidance for this decision, they're making decisions based on their share value - does the storm outweigh the potential for greenwood to bring success and monetary value to the club later.
But I agree with Merkel here - Conviction or not, and as opinion an anyone might think it to be... Every bit of the process we know shouts that this was done deal abuse and attempted rape. The conviction was drawn because she pulled out. From Greenwoods perspective - there's no way he stays with someone who would do what they did and attempted to ruin his career - he would have fought this. His only play/opportunity here was to weave the narrative of a redemption arc (which he pursued by... oh wait ignoring a god damn court order - again showing his complete disregard for authority) and this horrible money driven world is trying to fulfil that.
He abused her.
Regardless of past cases - this case has got real traction and public evidence/circumstance and it would be great if the public held the club to the moral standards we're supposed to be upholding as people. People make mistakes - but there has to be accountability for actions and mistakes. Most if not all generally have to be held to account for these and there is an impact from that.
The statement from the female fans is spot on and this club, it's fans and the people should be supporting that position.
He doesn't deserve to have the life of riley at this point and it infuriates me that there's the possibility the club and public will let this one go because he can kick an inflatable ball well. One rule for some and then another for footballers. No thanks.
I think Fez is right about the clubs won't use morals as their guidance for this decision, they're making decisions based on their share value - does the storm outweigh the potential for greenwood to bring success and monetary value to the club later.
But I agree with Merkel here - Conviction or not, and as opinion an anyone might think it to be... Every bit of the process we know shouts that this was done deal abuse and attempted rape. The conviction was drawn because she pulled out. From Greenwoods perspective - there's no way he stays with someone who would do what they did and attempted to ruin his career - he would have fought this. His only play/opportunity here was to weave the narrative of a redemption arc (which he pursued by... oh wait ignoring a god damn court order - again showing his complete disregard for authority) and this horrible money driven world is trying to fulfil that.
He abused her.
Regardless of past cases - this case has got real traction and public evidence/circumstance and it would be great if the public held the club to the moral standards we're supposed to be upholding as people. People make mistakes - but there has to be accountability for actions and mistakes. Most if not all generally have to be held to account for these and there is an impact from that.
The statement from the female fans is spot on and this club, it's fans and the people should be supporting that position.
He doesn't deserve to have the life of riley at this point and it infuriates me that there's the possibility the club and public will let this one go because he can kick an inflatable ball well. One rule for some and then another for footballers. No thanks.
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Caporegime
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He's not a kid and rape is not a 'mistake'
I understand people will have emotional reactions to this, but nowhere has fez said or even implied it's acceptable. There are no morals in football - I doubt many people would disagree with this. The FA are happily waving through owners from countries where certain groups of people are persecuted. Doesn't bother them one bit. I remember when the Newcastle takeover happened, one of their LGBT supporter groups popped up trying to support the Saudi takeover.
All I would say is that people are complicated, the case isn't necessarily black and white. If the recording and accusations are enough for you to despise him without considering any possible mitigating factors, then fair enough - I wouldn't blame you.
He was 19 when the alleged offences took place. You can form your own belief as to whether or not a crime took place but in the law he is innocent and inferring he is a rapist would be libellous so I'd be careful with your language.
I doubt many 19yo can be considered fully formed adults despite the legal classification.
Caporegime
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19 is not a kid, stop making excuses for his actions. Next you'll be telling me boys will be boys.
Yes I did, because when it comes to morals vs money, football goes to one side and its not morals. I don't know how this is being so misconstrued by you. I'm not saying football doesn't do the right thing when its cheap, easy and probably makes them money. Like, I don't know, anti-racism grandstanding.
Christ man, how are you still conflating my views on what football should be vs what football is? Also, most billion dollar companies don't have values. They claim they do but when it comes down to it they simply don't. Its better financially to have as few morals as you can get away with.
Again, just in case you are still struggling. I am not saying Greenwood should play for the club again. I am saying that a £100m asset is not going to be discarded easily or quickly by a football club on moral grounds. They are currently deciding if they can get away with bringing him back. That much is clear to me.
Again, that has nothing to do with this discussion. Anti-racism campaigns aren't costing clubs money. You know how Disney has certain things in its films and then cuts them from their releases in certain countries. They do that because it keeps everyone happy. The West thinks its being progressive and the likes of China don't have to see it. This is what I mean by amoral. They don't truly care and if they can earn brownie points by doing the right thing and it costs them very little they will of course do it. Amoral doesn't mean evil or bad.
Again, just for clarity, we shouldn't accept racism in sport and that was never the argument.
I'm sorry, where did I say violence to women was acceptable. I feel like I need to spell everything out in short sentences in case I am not being clear. Mason Greenwood should not be beating his partner. Hopefully he has learned that is wrong and unacceptable. Hoping that the victim of domestic abuse can find the strength to leave their abuser and prosecute them is not wrong.
I understand people will have emotional reactions to this, but nowhere has fez said or even implied it's acceptable. There are no morals in football - I doubt many people would disagree with this. The FA are happily waving through owners from countries where certain groups of people are persecuted. Doesn't bother them one bit. I remember when the Newcastle takeover happened, one of their LGBT supporter groups popped up trying to support the Saudi takeover.
All I would say is that people are complicated, the case isn't necessarily black and white. If the recording and accusations are enough for you to despise him without considering any possible mitigating factors, then fair enough - I wouldn't blame you.
I really don't understand the point you're trying to make with the whole there are no morals in football. I would hope Manchester United, the club I support, can make the right decision and not use historical bad decisions to justify making another of their own.
I think fez very much thinks it's acceptable. Using the term "pre-programmed" to describe the response the women's football team will have on Greenwood tells me that he believes they can only possibly saying they don't agree with it, because they've been told that's how they should feel. Heaven forbid these women have the opinion that domestic abuse and violence against women could be excused if a world wide brand such as Manchester United could be seen as normalising it by bringing Mason Greenwood back into the squad.
Now you are being ridiculous. You clearly have not fully read my posts on this.
How would your 19yo self (assuming you have reached that age) have handled being torpedoed into stardom and £4m a year in your pocket.
Anyway, I'm out of this discussion now. Thank you