Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

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Orangeade said:
Well for a starters people that live in the country? Surely they would like to know what the government is doing with their literal lives of themselves (if men) and of their families. The BBC casually throws in the remark that the figure may have jumped from 17k to 70k on the back of a failed counter attack.

Again I'm not talking about real time information, but overall transparency is surely expected to a point if people will give their lives potentially to the government?
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Some files from WW2 including Himmlers death, Hess visit to the UK including the correspondance with the King, Churchills knowledge of Pearl Harbour, pretty much everything SOE related, sinking of the RMS Lancastria, and a lot of the freindly fire incidents. Thats just from WW2
 
clv101 said:
Isn't that backwards? If the Ukrainians hadn't defended themselves, the war would have been over in a week, a new pro-Russian administration would be in Kiev, several hundred thousand people would still be alive and the buildings/infrastructure would be largely intact.
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Oh hello clv, I was just thinking about you the other day.

Has peak oil happened yet?
 
clv101 said:
Isn't that backwards? If the Ukrainians hadn't defended themselves, the war would have been over in a week, a new pro-Russian administration would be in Kiev, several hundred thousand people would still be alive and the buildings/infrastructure would be largely intact.
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Maybe that's the roadmap for future world peace. As soon as country A attacks county B, country B surrenders and gives them what they want. Ta da millions of lives saved....
 
Pipe & Slippers said:
I think it's only Russians who are giving their lives to their 'government'
Ukrainians are giving their lives to their country
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Ukrainian men from the age of 18-60 are forbidden to leave the country and are subject to the mandatory conscription.

So, yes they are giving their lives to the government. Are a lot of people patriotic doing it for their country yes, but not entirely to say the least.

So going back to my point transparency where possible does seem fair...
 
clv101 said:
Isn't that backwards? If the Ukrainians hadn't defended themselves, the war would have been over in a week, a new pro-Russian administration would be in Kiev, several hundred thousand people would still be alive and the buildings/infrastructure would be largely intact.
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Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner for stupid comment of the day, and it’s only half 1.
 
clv101 said:
Isn't that backwards? If the Ukrainians hadn't defended themselves, the war would have been over in a week, a new pro-Russian administration would be in Kiev, several hundred thousand people would still be alive and the buildings/infrastructure would be largely intact.
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Ah simple then, we just roll over to dictatorships, cool.
 
Orangeade said:
Ukrainian men from the age of 18-60 are forbidden to leave the country and are subject to the mandatory conscription.

So, yes they are giving their lives to the government. Are a lot of people patriotic doing it for their country yes, but not entirely to say the least.

So going back to my point transparency where possible does seem fair...
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Transparency will never happen in for military considerations, and propaganda purposes such as

apnews.com

New documents show Japan's wartime emperor had deep regrets

TOKYO (AP) — Japanese public broadcaster NHK has obtained documents showing that former Emperor Hirohito repeatedly felt sorry about World War II and tried, unsuccessfully, to express his feelings by using the word "remorse" in a 1952 speech.
apnews.com apnews.com

a lot of stuff is still classified
 
woppy101 said:
Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner for stupid comment of the day, and it’s only half 1.
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I think he is "technically" right, but it's abhorrent to think that people shouldn't/can't defend their sovereignty and liberty.

Otherwise everyone would roll over to dictators and it'd be an even worse world.
 
Orangeade said:
I think he is "technically" right, but it's abhorrent to think that people shouldn't/can't defend their sovereignty and liberty.

Otherwise everyone would roll over to dictators and it'd be an even worse world.
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Of course not I'm suggesting Ukraine, and their allies shouldn't defend themselves. They should. But it's simple wrong to say there would be more death if they hadn't defended themselves.
 
bjorkiii said:
Whose not to say the Russians wouldnt have just exterminated the Ukraine population? One thing they havent got is morals.
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No one can be sure of a future that didn't happen, but without resistance, that does seem unlikely. Russia aren't exterminating the Belarusian population and that's probably the best model we have for a compliant client state.
 
clv101 said:
Isn't that backwards? If the Ukrainians hadn't defended themselves, the war would have been over in a week, a new pro-Russian administration would be in Kiev, several hundred thousand people would still be alive and the buildings/infrastructure would be largely intact.
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We know what happened when Russia rolled into undefended Ukrainian territory. Systematic rape, looting, torture, murder and kidnapping. After that would have come the Kremlin’s offensive of political murders.
 
clv101 said:
No one can be sure of a future that didn't happen, but without resistance, that does seem unlikely. Russia aren't exterminating the Belarusian population and that's probably the best model we have for a compliant client state.
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Belarus have long been within Russia's circle though, but does exist as its own entity somewhat. It would be a different situation for Ukraine. Historically nothing good has happened when it involves this kind of situation with Russia and nothing suggests Russia is fundamentally different though somewhat modified by the need for appearances on the global landscape. Even if they'd replaced the Ukrainian government almost bloodlessly in the early days things would likely be pretty ugly and dragged hugely backwards into the past for many in Ukraine.

But that is only part of the problem, it would be incredibly naive to think Putin would stop there especially if he'd just rolled over Ukraine he'd be looking to repeat that again and again until eventually it was met with force. It is just the Russian way. As I've said before I don't think Putin set out with a conquest of Europe in mind but I am certain that if he'd rolled over Ukraine with the West looking weak things would not have gone a good way from there and sooner or later we'd be looking at a bloody confrontation with Russia but maybe more on our own doorstep.
 
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