Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

[ubersonic]

Main gun(s) on BMPT72 arnt stabilised, and are mounted way to close (conformant recoil harmonics) - eg, both guns reinforce each other for bouncing after shots fired. This massively reduces accuracy

The BMPT's guns are stabilised both vertically and horizontally. Not sure if that dude is making that mistake because he's reacting to a promo video of it doing cool stuff instead of actual combat use, or if he just doesn't understand what he's looking it.

In combat they are normally loaded with separate ammo types, I.E one with Armor-piercing discarding sabot and the other with High Explosive Fragmentation so that the unit can engage different target types without the need to reload. You wouldn't see it firing both at once* unless it was just going for overwhelming fire (target deletion rather than destruction) or just doing a promo video.

*Not that it actually fires both at the exact same time, even when firing both cannons they alternate.

Thought I'd have a quick looksie and see what they were

It's a really weird thing, because they originally designed it to compliment/support their tanks, but it turned out to be pretty much completely superior to their tanks as it has the same survivability, superior anti tank performance*, superior anti infantry performance, superior anti-building performance, superior speed, superior range, and actual (although limited) anti-air performance. The only thing it can't do is indirect HE shell fire (which tanks shouldn't ideally be doing anyway).

*On paper it "only" has four ATGMs, but it's not like any Russian tank is winning a 1v5 encounter.

 

[Rroff]

True but equally with totalitarian states like Russia collapses happen suddenly and without warning. We saw that with the collapse of the USSR and most likely we will see it this regime as well. The trigger will be economic problems rather them the outcome of the war, the pieces are in place with sky high interest rates, currency depreciation, a lag of forward investment, loss of skilled workers.

I would argue Russia is already in a recession at this point I know the GDP numbers suggest otherwise but it's being propped up by increased spending on the military which doesn't add anything of value to the economy. It's also worth noting Russia is burning through its sovereign wealth fund to pay for all this, the last lot data suggests they will have gotten through the fund by the end of 2023.

At some point there will be enough powerful people who will have had enough of all this and will take action. What and when that looks like I don't know but it will happen.

I've been wondering about it quite a bit but I'm not sure how it happens - many people in Russia are used to a hard life, many seem split between resigned to it or are anti-West and at least somewhat or more in support of the war so I don't really have much hopes for kick back from the population amounting to much. I was talking to a guy once on a plane ride home who'd been helping to build airports in Russia - said many of the Russian workers were permanently drunk/high, during the winter some would go missing and no one would give a ****, their bodies would appear as the snow retreated and everyone would just shrug.

If the rumours are right Putin came into power aided by a small number of the most rich and powerful in Russia who are probably as much involved with this war and decisions made as Putin is, then there is Putin's inner circle of friends who all seem loyal to him and are unlikely to collaborate against him out of fear it was a test of their loyalty, the only person who had any potential to remove him was Prigozhin - no one else has anything like the clout or access to really threaten Putin outside of a freak event. Some of the Russian elite have grumbled off the record to Western journalists but don't appear to be able or willing to take any action, in more recent weeks and months Putin has been doing something of a purge of those elites less close to him as well, with a spate of them dying off suddenly with their assets redistributed to younger entrepreneurs or people Putin wants to keep close such as relatives of Ramzan Kadyrov, who'll likely be loyal to Putin in response to that.

I think we are at least a generation away from seeing that kind of power change in Russia.

 

[One 48]

Not sure if this recent disclosure by the MOD of an event back in 2022 has been discussed in this very long thread yet? Apology if it has ... its an extremely busy thread to follow for anyone.

But anyway and although it happened LAST year, the MOD are only now (in last 24 hours according to the BBC) admitting to it.

I think its extremely worrying myself an inept Russian SU 27 pilot fired 2 missiles at an RAF aircraft in international airspace over the Russian ground controllers amateur ambiguity language and the eager beaver Russian pilots willingness to fire ... even more worrying was his fellow SU 27 Wingman who went nutz on him for doing so ... The Russians apologised ... apparently, but Damn, how long before a trigger happy incident like this does occur with a shoot down and as a consequence is seen as an act of war and more escalation ... imagine if this incident happened to an American aircraft in international air space??

I sincerely hope Putin dies soon .... Somehow? and more sensible minds prevail. The Russian military is so inept and corrupt, its crazy and extremely concerning.

Rogue Russian pilot tried to shoot down RAF aircraft in 2022

 

[Scougar]

Things with NATO and Russia getting interesting. US diplomats have been expelled, and US is preparing a response. A no fly zone has now been created in Bulgaria (Or was it Romania.. can't remember), that will shoot down any Russia air craft without warning.

 

[Rroff]

Things with NATO and Russia getting interesting. US diplomats have been expelled, and US is preparing a response. A no fly zone has now been created in Bulgaria (Or was it Romania.. can't remember), that will shoot down any Russia air craft without warning.

Noticed there has been a NATO AWACS hanging around those parts the last few days and the RAF is supposedly patrolling there to cover ships.

 

[One 48]

Rroff, could you comment on my post please, provided a link and what you think about that incident and why its been burried for so long by thge MOD ... Thanks

 

[Rroff]

Rroff, could you comment on my post please, provided a link and what you think about that incident and why its been burried for so long by thge MOD ... Thanks

Not sure what there is to add really - it is understandable why they'd want to downplay it as an isolated incident there is little gained by escalation. For some reason those RAF Rivet Joints were pushing the envelope quite a bit - the US ones around there were much more cautious and/or had close fighter cover (mostly they just used UAVs instead once things kicked off).

 

[One 48]

For some reason those RAF Rivet Joints were pushing the envelope quite a bit

Can you show me where you saw this please? It was International waters and probably a task the RAF were told to do under NATO obligations. Its telling that the Americans would not do it, also it was not RAF fighter aircraft the missiles were launched at in INTERNATIONAL AIRSPACE was it ... cmon.

Please lose the derogatory term RAF Rivet Joints too please, it does not become you ... I asked your opinion because I thought you were a good unbiassed debater, now I am not so sure.

Come from an RAF family here, my late Dad served 21 years and rather proud of him, live near RAF Lossiemouth who's Typhoons are in deployment in this hot zone right now ... its all very real to me.

Sorry ... dang it, this whole thing is a vacuum of hate and back and forth for seasoned bickers like your self it seems whom seem to think its just a big war game, not for me. I need to stop looking at this thread.

One day, and probably in the not to far future, one moron eager beaver brain washed Russian with poor disipline and a heavy dosage of Putin propoganda, will fire his missiles at allied Aircraft monitoring in international waters or airspace and those missiles might work this time ... and as a consequence things will escalate rapidly ... we cant have the likes of the MOD constantly accepting Russian apologies for their inept training.

 

[Rroff]

Please lose the derogatory term RAF Rivet Joints too please, it does not become you ... I asked your opinion because I thought you were a good unbiassed debater, now I am not so sure.

I think you are getting confused here - the plane in question was a Boeing RC-135 Rivet Joint it is a named variant of the RC-135 aircraft, along with others like Cobra Ball, Combat Sent, etc. not something derogatory.

 

[Efour]

Please lose the derogatory term RAF Rivet Joints too please, it does not become you ... I asked your opinion because I thought you were a good unbiassed debater, now I am not so sure.

RC-135W Rivet Joint

See more from the Royal Air Force

www.raf.mod.uk

im so confused?
as a non military person ??!? eh?

 

[One 48]

How were they were pushing the envelope quite a bit? They were in international waters under NATO orders and were no threat what so ever.

 

[Rroff]

How were they were pushing the envelope quite a bit? They were in international waters under NATO orders and were no threat what so ever.

They were doing approaches on Sochi, Sevastopol, etc. right up to the end of international airspace and turning away at the last minute. The US does the same a bit over northern Russia around Murmansk but for some reason are more leery in the Black Sea and aside from the UAVs rarely leave Romanian or Bulgarian airspace.

EDIT: First hit I can find on Google but they were doing flightpaths like this but even closer:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1522562455418900482

 

[Freddie1980]

Can you show me where you saw this please? It was International waters and probably a task the RAF were told to do under NATO obligations. Its telling that the Americans would not do it, also it was not RAF fighter aircraft the missiles were launched at in INTERNATIONAL AIRSPACE was it ... cmon.

Please lose the derogatory term RAF Rivet Joints too please, it does not become you ... I asked your opinion because I thought you were a good unbiassed debater, now I am not so sure.

What a bizarre post. How is calling a Boeing RC-135 Rivet Joint a RAF Rivet Joint derogatory?!?

 

[Dis86]

What a bizarre post. How is calling a Boeing RC-135 Rivet Joint a RAF Rivet Joint derogatory?!?

I think it might be a chat bot!

 

[Rroff]

What a bizarre post. How is calling a Boeing RC-135 Rivet Joint a RAF Rivet Joint derogatory?!?

I assume they thought I was essentially calling the RAF planes a bag of bolts - a little bizarre as the article mentions the plane by name and I'd assumed the capitalisation of the name would give a hint.

 

[Goodie]

I assume they thought I was essentially calling the RAF planes a bag of bolts - a little bizarre as the article mentions the plane by name and I'd assumed the capitalisation of the name would give a hint.

That’s exactly what a poor biased debater would say.

 

[Harlequin]

The BMPT's guns are stabilised both vertically and horizontally. Not sure if that dude is making that mistake because he's reacting to a promo video of it doing cool stuff instead of actual combat use, or if he just doesn't understand what he's looking it.

In combat they are normally loaded with separate ammo types, I.E one with Armor-piercing discarding sabot and the other with High Explosive Fragmentation so that the unit can engage different target types without the need to reload. You wouldn't see it firing both at once* unless it was just going for overwhelming fire (target deletion rather than destruction) or just doing a promo video.

*Not that it actually fires both at the exact same time, even when firing both cannons they alternate.

He served 20 years in the US Army as an infantry leader then infantry support specialised (which includes vehicles such as the BMPT-72) , so no i will happily take his expert word over the problems with the dual firing system on that vehicle than yours.

 

[peterwalkley]

MY guesses on the incident being downplayed:

- Complaining publicly would just encourage the Russian pilots to be even more aggressive. They view the whole Black Sea as their backyard.
- Avoids questions being raised about it not having a fighter escort.
- Avoids dealing with Tabloid hysteria and politicians playing to the gallery showing their sudden "expertise" in all matters military.

 

[Drukk]

I don't think the whole story is being told here, one missile missed and one fell off the wing? Seems highly unlikely. They are not that unreliable.

 

[Hades]

I don't think the whole story is being told here, one missile missed and one fell off the wing? Seems highly unlikely. They are not that unreliable.

Yes it seems a bit unlikely. "Missed" could mean "intercepted with countermeasures". The Russians do have a bit of history with missiles not engaging correctly and dropping off the wing though. Wasn't there an incident a few months back where they bombed their own village in the same way?