Net zero could push energy bills up by £120 a year

[Lean]

its just in response to the telegraph claims.... that was the number they put out there.

Lets say 1 trillion for our little country?
I watch a documentary Can we make a star on Earth 2007-08? where a guy (Saul Griffith?) says if we want to get everyone on the planet to share the power needed to get to 5kw each (the average global usage is 2.2kw each, while the US average 11.4kw) then we have to build in 25 years...
5000 nuclear plants = 2.5 every week for 25 years
Every 3 minutes for 25 years you need to build a wind turbine (2% of the worlds landmass taken up)
250m2 of solar panels every second for 25 years...

It is unachievable.

Im sure you guys can pick fault with this but lets all start getting realistic instead of this unicorn and rainbow lives some of you are living in.

 

[bigmike20vt]

Lets say 1 trillion for our little country?
I watch a documentary Can we make a star on Earth 2007-08? where a guy (Saul Griffith?) says if we want to get everyone on the planet to share the power needed to get to 5kw each (the average global usage is 2.2kw each, while the US average 11.4kw) then we have to build in 25 years...
5000 nuclear plants = 2.5 every week for 25 years
Every 3 minutes for 25 years you need to build a wind turbine (2% of the worlds landmass taken up)
250m2 of solar panels every second for 25 years...

It is unachievable.

Im sure you guys can pick fault with this but lets all start getting realistic instead of this unicorn and rainbow lives some of you are living in.

I do not believe those stats. but even if they are true it certainly is BS for the UK.

I have a small roof mounted solar array and before getting an EV I was a gnats backside off generating my yearly usage. (currently I am 520kwh in the black and I can show you the figures to back that up if needed for 2023 - and that is after an awful July/August) that is not to say I could go off-grid as 6 months of the year I export a little and 6 months I import some.
I will concede that some countries have an unsustainable population density.. I can't control that however, but I can get my usage right down.

but other countries are not my problem..... we are on a tiny little island and our country CAN be net zero. other countries have their own issues but we can't really judge them until we get our own house in order, and we have it comparatively easy.

 

[FoxEye]

Lets say 1 trillion for our little country?
I watch a documentary Can we make a star on Earth 2007-08? where a guy (Saul Griffith?) says if we want to get everyone on the planet to share the power needed to get to 5kw each (the average global usage is 2.2kw each, while the US average 11.4kw) then we have to build in 25 years...
5000 nuclear plants = 2.5 every week for 25 years
Every 3 minutes for 25 years you need to build a wind turbine (2% of the worlds landmass taken up)
250m2 of solar panels every second for 25 years...

It is unachievable.

Im sure you guys can pick fault with this but lets all start getting realistic instead of this unicorn and rainbow lives some of you are living in.

I'm not sure what it is you're talking about above, or how it's related to this country achieving Net Zero.

The UK already generates something between 36% and 43% of its electricity from renewables. Whatever the above is referring to it certainly isn't what's necessary for this country to have clean energy.

And no, I don't think we want everybody on the planet to use the same energy as someone in the US. That's not something anyone is trying to do. That documentary you watched was about trying to sell the dream of fusion power. And one of the "unicorns" as you put it from that dream, is that everyone can have near limitless energy.

So don't conflate two very different issues.

 

[Hagar]

The use of any energy inevitably resolves mainly to heat. Some conversion to noise often as a byproduct, but largely to heat. Therefore keeping energy use low is as important as what source the energy is taken from. I have taken issue with some consumers who when offered negative pricing at intervals think whoohoo let's burn energy and get paid for it. That is OK if it is using demand at a different time than would be usual but not OK if it just increases consumption.

Huge steps have been made in this country to both reduce fossil fuel use for energy production and transport and the associated pollution. You only have to smell a nineteen seventies car to realise that and that is running unleaded not full fat petroleum of the day. There are too many cars on the road and that needs better transport solutions however most power is far cleaner per unit consumer, we just use too much individually.

 

[theone8181]

Surely the issue with panels is that you overproduce in summer, but can't produce enough in winter? My daily usage is something like 12kwh (excluding charging the car), which I think even a small system would cover when its sunny, but the other 19 months of the year it would struggle. We should have built a few nuclear plants earlier, like France did.

 

[SDK^]

It is a silly figure. HS2 is costing each tax payer 2-3k. The cost to change every forecourt to EV, every home to EV and then building enough nuclear power stations to supply those needs would make HS2 look like pocket change.

Nuclear Power isn't a key player in the UK future generation scenarios

 

[PlacidCasual]

Nuclear Power isn't a key player in the UK future generation scenarios

Which is a shame because hydrogen and batteries have never been done on the scale we're talking about so there remains some risk to delivery. I'd build 5 Hinckley C's straight off whilst I spent the time developing molten slat reactors, a robust nuclear sector can be used as a development route for all sorts of high skilled craftsmen to support UK industry at large.

 

[Hagar]

Much of French nuclear is aging, costly and frequently out of action. Hence last winter we were supplying gas from the North Sea.

 

[bigmike20vt]

Surely the issue with panels is that you overproduce in summer, but can't produce enough in winter? My daily usage is something like 12kwh (excluding charging the car), which I think even a small system would cover when its sunny, but the other 19 months of the year it would struggle. We should have built a few nuclear plants earlier, like France did.

i agree for the forseeable we do need more nuclear, and this is definitely a cross party failure over multiple decades.

however if anything EVs and home batteries will massively help with over production...... also stuff like H2 manufacture is hugely energy expensive. in times where there is too much energy to use ideally it should be dumped into that.

add in more interconnects, when we have a surplus of renewables we send it to france, when we are short, france send us their nuclear. We already do this but we need more to way more countries, we need to be an interconnected world..

I dont doubt there is a huge amount of work ahead (and great career opportunities for people). a huge investment world wide is needed in the infrastructure. it has to be possible............... and if it isnt i truly believe either our kids or our grandkids are stuffed (indeed they may be anyway tbh)

PS what planet are you on for there to be more than 19 months of the year

excluding my car, my solar array net covers my energy use for 6 months of the year......... for 5 of those months i have a huge excess.

for 3 months, it makes a dent but isnt enough - but my home battery allows me to use off peak energy where more often than not there is an excess of generation for me to store.

then for the other 3 months my panels dont do much of anything worth talking about........

 

[Twinz]

Our solar array produces enough net energy to power our home. The problem is *storage*.

Net-metering covers up the issue by effectively using the grid as my storage, but if everyone had solar the excess energy produced in the middle of the day would have to go into batteries...and a LOT of them.

Our home produces more than it uses, but we did it for economic reasons and I understand that it won't scale-up to a national / world solution without some sort of breakthrough in storage technology.

I don't know if there are enough raw materials/ resources to scale even just the production side of the solar equation. I can't imagine we have anywhere near the resources to scale storage with current technology.

 

[bigmike20vt]

Our solar array produces enough net energy to power our home. The problem is *storage*.

Net-metering covers up the issue by effectively using the grid as my storage, but if everyone had solar the excess energy produced in the middle of the day would have to go into batteries...and a LOT of them.

Our home produces more than it uses, but we did it for economic reasons and I understand that it won't scale-up to a national / world solution without some sort of breakthrough in storage technology.

I don't know if there are enough raw materials/ resources to scale even just the production side of the solar equation. I can't imagine we have anywhere near the resources to scale storage with current technology.

surely this is where EVs come in.

now dont get me wrong even they may not soak enough up for those with fantastic arrays and who are exporting 60kwh a day in summer, but in reality how many people will have those, plus people in flats who cant have solar but will eventually have an EV.

even on the most perfect summer day i only export 25kwh max (usually much less)...... but if we all had EVs that would soon be soaked up.

Add to that water tanks... i know a lot of us have only just got rid of our water tanks, but the truth is, a modern tank is probably a different beast to the ones we may have got shut off, so we likely would have needed new anyway.

but excess solar would soon be gobbled up if you dump it into a hot water tank, and no battery needed for that.

 

[jigger]

Yeah it is a lose lose situation for the car makers. Not due to the EV's fault but the problem with the technology constantly evolving at a rapid pace unlike ICE which has been matured for a good 20-30 years.

Take the Electric mini. new one has been announced which is a big improvement over the old which is only two years old itself and values are already poor at around 40% after only two years which is horrid. Automakers then have to charge stupid amounts for PCP which means no one buys them or sell them at a loss plus those who chucked plenty of good money at an EV that wants an upgrade now realises their car is worth nothing and their replacement EV will go the same way due to the constant rapid evolution.

Great for the used market though. Loads of cheap ex fleet cars.

 

[Twinz]

surely this is where EVs come in.

now dont get me wrong even they may not soak enough up for those with fantastic arrays and who are exporting 60kwh a day in summer, but in reality how many people will have those, plus people in flats who cant have solar but will eventually have an EV.

even on the most perfect summer day i only export 25kwh max (usually much less)...... but if we all had EVs that would soon be soaked up.

Add to that water tanks... i know a lot of us have only just got rid of our water tanks, but the truth is, a modern tank is probably a different beast to the ones we may have got shut off, so we likely would have needed new anyway.

but excess solar would soon be gobbled up if you dump it into a hot water tank, and no battery needed for that.

All EV's would have to be plugged in and carging for the same 3 or so hours every day. (Within given time zones)

The sun provides plenty of net energy, but it crams all of it into a relatively narrow time frame. I can't envision a system where we manage to use all the energy when the sun is making it and then not use energy when the sun isn't making enough, or any energy at all.

Even EV's are just rolling batteries and we need the same resources for those batteries.

 

[bigmike20vt]

Great for the used market though. Loads of cheap ex fleet cars.

indeed..... i got my 2.5 year old car with 40k on the clock for half price.

some would say that is unsustainable well i guess that is why in the short term the subsidies on EV cars are so important to help keep it viable to get new EV cars (because if no one buys them then it IS a problem)

at some point the rate of progress will slow down, and therefore the 2nd hand cars should not become so unattractive so quickly so will hold value more.

 

[bigmike20vt]

All EV's would have to be plugged in and carging for the same 3 or so hours every day. (Within given time zones)

The sun provides plenty of net energy, but it crams all of it into a relatively narrow time frame. I can't envision a system where we manage to use all the energy when the sun is making it and then not use energy when the sun isn't making enough, or any energy at all.

Even EV's are just rolling batteries and we need the same resources for those batteries.

not all EVs need to be plugged in then............ but I agree a significant proportion. Even then, it doesnt have to be YOUR EV using the excess. The cars have to go somewhere, even when you are at work, ultimately all carparks need to have plugs to charge, and especially all workplaces over a certain size.

also solar is but 1 source of power.

The truth is we have been spoilt for so long with fossil fuels, no one "clean" energy will be able to do it all, we are really fortunate as we have so many different options

Solar
Wind
Tidal
Geothermal
hydro (both for generation and storage)
Nuclear

Solar is great when it works, but does nothing when it doesnt.... luckily on average we get more wind in winter than in summer and overnight demand is less than in the day.

tidal and geothermal is totally predictable

and nuclear will be the backbone.

small home batteries (eventually derived from old EV car batteries) and water tanks can be in everyones home, then stuff like sand batteries or stone batteries possibly on estates or around blocks of flats (along with Ground source heat pumps)

Hydrogen is a good source of getting rid of excess electricity,

personally i would also like to see 20% of all car batteries put to one side to give back to the grid if need be as well (with subsidies to the car owner and with the option to override if ever you know you need the 100%) So you plug your car in even if you do not need to charge and avail that 20%, to be replaced when demand goes down.

it certainly wont be without bumps in the road and may mean some inconveniences but (unless you do not believe climate change is a thing, in which case you (not the literal you) will never be convinced, but if you do believe in climate change then some slight inconveniences will be inevitable.

 

[jigger]

not all EVs need to be plugged in then............ but I agree a significant proportion. Even then, it doesnt have to be YOUR EV using the excess. The cars have to go somewhere, even when you are at work, ultimately all carparks need to have plugs to charge, and especially all workplaces over a certain size.

also solar is but 1 source of power.

The truth is we have been spoilt for so long with fossil fuels, no one "clean" energy will be able to do it all, we are really fortunate as we have so many different options

Solar
Wind
Tidal
Geothermal
Nuclear

Solar is great when it works, but does nothing when it doesnt.... luckily on average we get more wind in winter than in summer and overnight demand is less than in the day.

tidal and geothermal is totally predictable

and nuclear will be the backbone.

small home batteries (eventually derived from old EV car batteries) and water tanks can be in everyones home, then stuff like sand batteries or stone batteries possibly on estates or around blocks of flats (along with Ground source heat pumps)

Hydrogen is a good source of getting rid of excess electricity,

personally i would also like to see 20% of all car batteries put to one side to give back to the grid if need be as well (with subsidies to the car owner and with the option to override if ever you know you need the 100%) So you plug your car in even if you do not need to charge and avail that 20%, to be replaced when demand goes down.

it certainly wont be without bumps in the road and may mean some inconveniences but (unless you do not believe climate change is a thing, in which case you (not the literal you) will never be convinced, but if you do believe in climate change then some slight inconveniences will be inevitable.

We have indeed. The past 5 generations have had subsidies on life and taken fully abused less than cost energy. The coming 30 generations have to pay for our subsidies and full price for their own energy.

Essentially we are the ultimate party generation, but we will feel the hangover briefly.

 

[bigmike20vt]

We have indeed. The past 5 generations have had subsidies on life and taken fully abused less than cost energy. The coming 30 generations have to pay for our subsidies and full price for their own energy.

Essentially we are the ultimate party generation, but we will feel the hangover briefly.

perhaps i am blissfully naive but i do believe with the technology we have today AND investment in future technology for tomorrow there is enough sustainable energy to not push us back to the pre industrial age.
I also think its a time of opportunity for countries to really become leading forces and for the creation of lots of skilled labour.

Whether its too late for the worst part of environmental changes to be swerved i am less optimistic...... if back in the early 1980s when the issue of climate change was actually investigated and proven by the oil companies different decisions had been made we would have been in a far better position but we cant go back so....................

 

[jeffk]

I find the country’s – and in particular this government’s – lack of ambition desperately sad. We seem to accepted that we’re no longer world leaders.

 

[jigger]

perhaps i am blissfully naive but i do believe with the technology we have today AND investment in future technology for tomorrow there is enough sustainable energy to not push us back to the pre industrial age.
I also think its a time of opportunity for countries to really become leading forces and for the creation of lots of skilled labour.

Whether its too late for the worst part of environmental changes to be swerved i am less optimistic...... if back in the early 1980s when the issue of climate change was actually investigated and proven by the oil companies different decisions had been made we would have been in a far better position but we cant go back so....................

It’s not too late, but we are going to suffer and face difficult choices. Our future generations very much more so.

I hope we can pass on some incredibly robust and clean energy generation. Over engineered, long life nuclear power stations etc.

 

[jigger]

If someone has a system of us hitting net zero for £120 I’m all in. Put me down for ten please.