Poll: Official 2023 Japanese Grand Prix Thread - Suzuka International - Round 17

Rate the Japanese Grand Prix out of ten

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Normal service resumed - I guess we can knock any of the conspiracy theories about Red Bull and the clamping down of flexi-wings affecting their performance then......
And by normal service I mean Perez looking utterly poor again and nowhere near Max, I'm almost beginning to wonder if Christian Horner is Sergio Perez dad, surely there's no other reason to keep him on at this point
 
Quartz said:
Tsunoda is big in Japan, isn’t he?
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Oh, when you're big in Japan, tonight
Big in Japan, be tight
Big in Japan, ooh, the Eastern sea's so blue
Big in Japan, alright
Pay, then I'll sleep by your side
Things are easy when you're big in Japan

-- sorry, couldn't resist.
 
chrismscotland said:
And by normal service I mean Perez looking utterly poor again and nowhere near Max, I'm almost beginning to wonder if Christian Horner is Sergio Perez dad, surely there's no other reason to keep him on at this point
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The question that needs answering is: who to replace him with? Gasly and Albon have shown that decent drivers can't manage that seat, Pérez has shown that an experienced mid-tier driver can't manage that seat, Tsunoda doesn't look like he has the chops, and after Ricciardo embarrassed himself at McLaren would you want to throw him back in enough to buy out Pérez's contract? Better to give him a recovery season at AT and bring him in for 2025 if that's the plan.

Meanwhile the RB junior pipeline has pretty much stalled, and they surely wouldn't risk throwing Lawson straight in that RB seat, and the various impressive drivers from other teams are locked down on their own contracts.
 
I just think RB are arrogant enough to think they can keep treating Perez like dirt, whilst enabling Max to be so far ahead of everyone else it doesn’t matter what Perez does. They just want to win the constructors and WDC and with the setup they have currently, it’s fine.

Why I say arrogance - is because if any team gets closer next year they’ll need a proper second driver to protect leads, do alternative strategy and pick up the points for the constructors. But RB won’t realise that until it happens.
 
Mr Jack said:
The question that needs answering is: who to replace him with? Gasly and Albon have shown that decent drivers can't manage that seat, Pérez has shown that an experienced mid-tier driver can't manage that seat, Tsunoda doesn't look like he has the chops, and after Ricciardo embarrassed himself at McLaren would you want to throw him back in enough to buy out Pérez's contract? Better to give him a recovery season at AT and bring him in for 2025 if that's the plan.

Meanwhile the RB junior pipeline has pretty much stalled, and they surely wouldn't risk throwing Lawson straight in that RB seat, and the various impressive drivers from other teams are locked down on their own contracts.
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Which all points at Perez probably staying at least another year. While he's miles off Verstappen, that's what Red Bull want and need. The second driver needs to be slow enough so that there's no friction between the drivers, but quick enough to pick up enough points to win the WCC - which is exactly what Perez is.

It may be a different story next year if the other teams catch up to Red Bull and Perez has more of a fight to get a decent result, at which point RB will have given their driver roster another year to develop and prove themselves - Lawson especially.
 
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Scam said:
I just think RB are arrogant enough to think they can keep treating Perez like dirt, whilst enabling Max to be so far ahead of everyone else it doesn’t matter what Perez does. They just want to win the constructors and WDC and with the setup they have currently, it’s fine.

Why I say arrogance - is because if any team gets closer next year they’ll need a proper second driver to protect leads, do alternative strategy and pick up the points for the constructors. But RB won’t realise that until it happens.
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Why is it arrogant? They're literally beating every other team with one driver? Poor form to throw names at a team because your team didn't know about sidepods.

Perez likely brings in a ton through sponsorship and realistically they don't have a strong alternative lined up. Lawson seems to be the pick of the bunch and could potentially take the seat now given they don't rely on having a strong 2nd driver, which would give him time to acclimatise, but always the risk that he puts himself under too much pressure and burns out.
 
Scam said:
I just think RB are arrogant enough to think they can keep treating Perez like dirt, whilst enabling Max to be so far ahead of everyone else it doesn’t matter what Perez does. They just want to win the constructors and WDC and with the setup they have currently, it’s fine.

Why I say arrogance - is because if any team gets closer next year they’ll need a proper second driver to protect leads, do alternative strategy and pick up the points for the constructors. But RB won’t realise that until it happens.
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Other than Helmut's usual bizarre comments how are Red Bull treating Perez 'like dirt'?
 
Mesai said:
Why is it arrogant? They're literally beating every other team with one driver? Poor form to throw names at a team because your team didn't know about sidepods.
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lol sidepods. Good one.
Stumble Bum said:
Other than Helmut's usual bizarre comments how are Red Bull treating Perez 'like dirt'?
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Haven't you been watching this year? Or even last year?
 
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Can’t RBR sign up Bottas? Perfect #2 driver in a fast car. Consistently on the podium picking up WCC points and able to get on the top step when the #1 driver is having a bad Sunday.
 
Stumble Bum said:
So no answer from you then.
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Any other team would have fired Helmet by now. The fact they haven't shows they are treating Perez like dirt. To have one of the most senior members of your team publicly make xenophobic slurs against your driver and not to anything about it is treating the victim like dirt.

Or Sao Paulo '22 when not reprimanding Verstappen for not giving the place back. Or after Perez won Azerbaijan '22 Horner was on the radio to Verstappen first to apologise to Max that "Checo got lucky with the safety car". Or when Perez was leading the Dutch GP this year and they allowed Verstappen behind to stop and undercut him when the weather was changing. Perez was leading, and should have first choice on strategy, but they didn't even consult him. There's a million other examples but I don't have the time nor inclination to find them all for you because nowadays the articles and social media stuff that you find when you search for them is just nonsense. It's fairly common parlance that RB treat Verstappen over any second driver, I'm not entirely sure why I need to explain that to a RB fan :confused:
 
Scam said:
Any other team would have fired Helmet by now. The fact they haven't shows they are treating Perez like dirt. To have one of the most senior members of your team publicly make xenophobic slurs against your driver and not to anything about it is treating the victim like dirt.

Or Sao Paulo '22 when not reprimanding Verstappen for not giving the place back. Or after Perez won Azerbaijan '22 Horner was on the radio to Verstappen first to apologise to Max that "Checo got lucky with the safety car". Or when Perez was leading the Dutch GP this year and they allowed Verstappen behind to stop and undercut him when the weather was changing. Perez was leading, and should have first choice on strategy, but they didn't even consult him. There's a million other examples but I don't have the time nor inclination to find them all for you because nowadays the articles and social media stuff that you find when you search for them is just nonsense. It's fairly common parlance that RB treat Verstappen over any second driver, I'm not entirely sure why I need to explain that to a RB fan :confused:
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Does anyone really care? We know Red Bull is the Max show and will be until he retires or moves on, its little different to how Schumacher's team mates were treated as a sideshow in his Ferrari days, although I will concede that the Marko "slur" in recent weeks was ridiculous.

Red Bull aren't bothered about having an equal quickest driver in the same way Mercedes weren't bothered when they had Bottas alongside Hamilton. The difference is that Perez just doesn't seem to be consistent enough over a season as a second driver, something you couldn't have levelled at Bottas who was uber steady and reliable.

As your clearly not an RB fan I don't understand why your so upset about it. If Perez feels strongly enough then he can go and look for another team.
 
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In terms of the other teams chasing Redbull now we've had a couple of key things which I would have thought would contribute to closing the gap:

1: Detailed pictures of the underside of the Redbull open to the world
2: Seen massively degraded performance of the Redbull during the Singapore GP

I think (1) helped teams work out what was going on, and we saw more of a move to sidepods and floor edge tweaks that have closed the gap.
But with (2) could this be the biggest clues as to why the Redbull is working so well? The overarching theme I am getting is that the Redbull runs very, very low whilst also avoiding porpoising due to clever rear suspension design?

Do you think the Redbull is far ahead due to unchangeable chassis differences which cannot be fixed without full car redesigns?
Do you think teams will suddenly click with a key change which will unlock pace?
Do you think the Redbull is fast due to the culmination of all of the "little things" which add up to a fast car?
Do you think there is something still which teams have not worked out, possibly to do with parts of the car flexing which cannot be seen or measured easily?

I am hopeful the gap can be closed significantly earlier than the 2025 final season in this reg period. I'm hoping for 2024 to at least be a challenge for Redbull, but probably still winning it.
 
Scam said:
Any other team would have fired Helmet by now. The fact they haven't shows they are treating Perez like dirt. To have one of the most senior members of your team publicly make xenophobic slurs against your driver and not to anything about it is treating the victim like dirt.

Or Sao Paulo '22 when not reprimanding Verstappen for not giving the place back. Or after Perez won Azerbaijan '22 Horner was on the radio to Verstappen first to apologise to Max that "Checo got lucky with the safety car". Or when Perez was leading the Dutch GP this year and they allowed Verstappen behind to stop and undercut him when the weather was changing. Perez was leading, and should have first choice on strategy, but they didn't even consult him. There's a million other examples but I don't have the time nor inclination to find them all for you because nowadays the articles and social media stuff that you find when you search for them is just nonsense. It's fairly common parlance that RB treat Verstappen over any second driver, I'm not entirely sure why I need to explain that to a RB fan :confused:
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Having a driver as a second driver is not treating them 'like dirt'.

The majority of teams, especially those going for the title, may make decisions that favour one driver over the other. This has been the norm for decades.

Perez has been given years at the team, he's been given a title winning car, plenty of opportunities and plenty of support along the way when let's face it, he has massively underperformed.

You're really clutching at straws if you think he's been mistreated.

But that's your Red Bull hatred for you.

I think Perez has been given some fantastic opportunities thanks to Red Bull, he was out of F1 altogether if Red Bull didn't sign him up and I'm sure he's quite grateful for it.
 
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