Net zero could push energy bills up by £120 a year

[VersionMonkey]

The car makes a complicated model.
Stick to an easier one, i've demonstrated above one of the simplest.

If you can explain how you think the stored water is going to turn the other 500wh into heat we can go into the in depth way that all the energy the fuel has been converted into could be turned into heat.

I will give you a tip. You cannot. That 500wh can only be released by moving the water. Otherwise we could magically create energy by waiting until it had been converted and then releasing it to generate energy.

It's an entirely pedantic point but it will all end up as heat eventually. That's a fundemental part of physics and is inescapable.

I've no idea how the topic arrived here, but in terms of your challenge of how the energy can be lost without moving the water, how about this as a solution: The water will evaporate, reducing the mass of the stored water and so the potential energy of the system is also reduced.

 

[Caracus2k]

Ok, so instead of pumping water up hill.
I take you car, I drive it up a very steep hill from the bottom and park it at the top.

Have I converted 100% of the energy to heat.
Or have I converted part of the energy to potential?

Part of the energy is in deed now 'stored' as potential energy.

But the point of a vehicle is not to serve as energy storage device but to turn energy stored into primarily kinetic energy.

At some point that potential energy is going to end up being transfered again.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

It's an entirely pedantic point but it will all end up as heat eventually. That's a fundemental part of physics and is inescapable.

I've no idea how the topic arrived here, but in terms of your challenge of how the energy can be lost without moving the water, how about this as a solution: The water will evaporate, reducing the mass of the stored water and so the potential energy of the system is also reduced.

Sneaky bringing evaporation in

Yep its all going to be energy eventually but that could be a very very long time.

Part of the energy is in deed now 'stored' as potential energy.

But the point of a vehicle is not to serve as energy storage device but to turn energy stored into primarily kinetic energy.

At some point that potential energy is going to end up being transfered again.

So what if the point of a vehicle is not to serve as an energy store.
The point is that it may not within even a lifetime end up as energy.

I could carry a rock up a mountain and place it at the top.
That rock may sit there for years, holding that small amount of energy that I transferred to it. Alternatively the next day someone could kick it off the top and it will then transfer its energy back (into heat) when it transfers that energy to heat on impact with something(s)

When we undertake work with a motor its certainly possible that some of that work is stored in a state that is not released for a long time.

 

[jpaul]

like using that motor to provide kinetic energy to water to push it upwards in Dinorwig hydro

for ref from earlier discussion Dinorwig, is 75% efficient, pity we haven't got more potential energy storage mechanisms strategically placed in the UK, for that overnight octopus surplus,
but maybe batteries (now?) have a cheaper,/kwh lifetime cost.

This paper lists Dinorwig as having a cycle efficiency of 74-75%.

 

[bigmike20vt]

Thats what I believe they mean yes.
I will ask him again since hes calling me back but I questioned in regards pipe and he said 10mm is fine. Its normally measured by the outside dimensions not the inside bore.

There is a heat pump thread in home and garden by the way that we are talking about this.

Here are the details from my quote
"Hi there,

Thanks so much for your interest in a heat pump with Octopus Energy. We're delighted to say that from everything you've told us, we can offer the following fixed price for your installation:

£3800 (0% VAT)​

What's included in your fixed price?​

Your quote includes all the things you'll need to upgrade your home with low-carbon home heating, that includes:

• A market-leading Daikin air source heat pump
• A compatible hot water cylinder
• Any necessary radiator changes
• Plumbing & electrical bits needed to fit your new heating system
• £5,000 Boiler Upgrade Scheme grant (we apply for this grant on your behalf)
• All delivery and labour cost"

Sorry for dodgy formatting

that sounds different to the thing I saw and linked as that came with the octopus branded cosy 6 heatpump

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

that sounds different to the thing I saw and linked as that came with the octopus branded cosy 6 heatpump

Thats their only this week happened announcement
I think if you want those units you need to wait longer, but I would hope the price would be even more competitive!

Oh I also ignored there is a £250 rebate back from Daikin right now.

 

[D.P.]

You are right and so am I to an extent. A fraction of the electrical energy is produced using renewable sources across the planet. Demand for energy and manufactured stuff cranks up the energy required and the power stations kick in. Turn on the AC to keep cool and the power required needs to come from somewhere. Even in the temperate UK people sleep with AC, ridiculous. Dishwashers and tumble dryers why?

As an aside, why do processors have big **** off heat sinks if they do not produce epic heat for their size. If we halved our energy requirements we would reduce our greenhouse gas emissions as well as standard of living but economies begin at home, no?

definitely we should work on efficiency, e.g. ban incandescent bulbs and limit vacuum power, but that wasn't the argument you presented. The actual heat output, even if all the entire worlds electricity was converted straight to heat in a big space heater would make no difference to global temperatures because the energy output is indistinguishable from the background energy of solar iradience.


some electrical devices are not (massively overclocked CPUs) but in general efficiency is higher than burning fossil fuels in small engines/heaters. Also, CPUs are a good example because really powerful CPUs exist in phones that use <1w. This is why regulation works so well

 

[D.P.]

Agreed but less than a quarter of energy worldwide is produced by renewables. We maybe can solve the emissions over our corner of the sky but that is not a solution. The only solution really is to bring down energy use whether that is electricity or fossil fuels. Burning wood is not too clever either.

it is not an either or. Improving efficiency helps makes it easier for renewables to cover all requirements. Also, demand molding so energy usage is flattened or better yet, shifted to match supply

 

[Lean]

I can't get my head around how you guys have fallen hook line and for a target Boris set to impress other countries at copXX. Then we had a Prime Minister who was in office no longer than my washing takes to dry, making a legal commitment to the climate change bill "A Bill to place a duty on the Government to declare a climate emergency (please); to amend the Climate Change Act 2008 to bring forward the date by which the United Kingdom is required to achieve net zero greenhouse gas emissions;..." Next to nothing will happen in the next 30+ years apart from the self harm this bill will put on us. We may have a technological epiphany but to risk a country's economy (people) on a pipe dream is criminal. How do you trust a government that "lead" us though the last 3 years? Do you people truly believe the spin?
edit. Btw that bill was debated for less than 90 minutes

​

 

[theone8181]

I beat you to that pun in post 209

I'm not going to lie, I missed your post as this thread seems to fill up pretty quick and I may have skimmed it once or twice .

To the guy about cpus, I'm not sure the cou in a phone can really compare to a standalone pc in terms of usable power. Also remember that even the use of a gaming pc on full chat is in the noise compared to how much energy it takes to move a car. Let's say a pc uses 1000W (an extreme case) for an hour, a car can use that in 4 miles/4 minutes.

 

[FoxEye]

Wrt to the housing/heating situation.

I wonder if in this country we've totally screwed ourselves by having such lax house regulations, and allowing house builders to build any old *****.

We had an informal chat with someone who does heating, and our house is - and always will be - utterly unsuitable for a heat pump. Our house is single-block, timber-framed, and ludicrously poorly built (on the cheap). No amount of insulation can fix it. Indeed, the insulation they squirted into the walls should never have been done and actually made things worse. The house will always leak heat like a sieve, and we'll always have mammoth heating bills.

A heat pump wouldn't even be able to heat the place to a reasonable temp in winter.

I wonder how many cheaply, poorly built houses like ours are commonplace up and down the country.

 

[Werewolf]

Wrt to the housing/heating situation.

I wonder if in this country we've totally screwed ourselves by having such lax house regulations, and allowing house builders to build any old *****.

We had an informal chat with someone who does heating, and our house is - and always will be - utterly unsuitable for a heat pump. Our house is single-block, timber-framed, and ludicrously poorly built (on the cheap). No amount of insulation can fix it. Indeed, the insulation they squirted into the walls should never have been done and actually made things worse. The house will always leak heat like a sieve, and we'll always have mammoth heating bills.

A heat pump wouldn't even be able to heat the place to a reasonable temp in winter.

I wonder how many cheaply, poorly built houses like ours are commonplace up and down the country.

I suspect that is the case.

Many of the modern builds seem to have very much inferior quality than those of the 70's/80's, and are typically much smaller. About the only thing they've done "right" is better insulation, but even then only where it's been applied properly.
I've been watching some of the "snagging" videos on youtube and the sort of issues that the builders are trying to get away with show either a very systematic and deliberate set of corners cuts, little or no oversight during the build (aren't they largely self certified for build quality now?), or a complete lack of training of the builders.

Things like standard "weep vents" not fitted so they fit dummy ones to try and pass inspection, brick work that is massively out of true* , and that's just the stuff that is easy to check visually without having to look behind or under anything.

IIRC one interesting stat I remember seeing a while back was that whilst we joke about the size of Japanese housing, apparently they average more space than we do.

We've basically allowed the lowest quality builders to help set our building standards, and then removed much of the old independent oversight under the false pretence of "efficiency".

*My neighbour in the 80's built his extension without any prior brick laying experience, his quality far exceeds many "professional" new builds, the bricks are level, straight and down lean in or out - he took the time to do it right knowing he wanted to live in it (and the fact the building inspector was likely to be strict with him as an amateur).