Net zero could push energy bills up by £120 a year

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

At best it was very badly worded. For example the sentence:



Is just nonsence. Its not the 'inefficiencies' that cause the heat.

The 'inefficiencies' are related to the amount energy turned to heat that hasn't performed some useful 'work' beforehand ( of course useful work may indeed be the intentional generation of heat for example for a cars cabin climate system)

Heat is the inevitable outcome of expending the energy stored in fossil fuel or a battery.

Sorry but in this regard, efficiency, hes right and your wrong.

Pumped storage gives us another example, its about 50% efficient.

You can take 1kwh of energy, use that to pump water up hill. Then release it back down again and have 500wh of energy available.
The losses, the 50% in this case is lost to generally heat, motors etc getting hot.

So you have stored energy for a period of time and then released that back later.

If you could pump it up hill, store it and then relase the water back down hill and achieve 100% energy back, ie zero losses your efficiency would be 100%.
Remember your converting energy here into another form and the releasing it back.
100% of the energy has not be turned into heat. 50% has.

Its a somewhat odd thing to be discussing anyway. reducing energy usage is just as vital as generating it more cleanly and sustainably which is what he was replying to.

 

[bigmike20vt]

Individuals are never going to stump up the cash to improve at an individual level.

Heat pumps (or other options), better insulation, new windows.

speak for yourself. I am in the process of doing it and am almost all there aside from the gas boiler .. but when that gets EOL that will be gone too.

I am not saying people should rip out a working boiler, but when it comes time to replace if your house is suitable it makes sense to replace with something more environmentally sustainable even IF you plan to sell the house.

I agree government help is needed for the big stuff but basic insulation is easy (it was the 2nd job we did after new windows and doors)

the new octopus ASHP they are claiming is free with the grant Inc water tank if your pipes and rads are ok. around £3k if you need new pipes and rads (unless I read it wrong)

if you need a new boiler that is if anything cheaper than a decent quality gas boiler

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

Very hard to measure though. And we are not there yet. I know putting in new windows here would not increase the price by the amount spent.

And right now, am ashp might actually decrease price, such is the distrust of them.

I'm extreme examples, yeah, for sure. But when youre in a house just a few years, it's a big big gamble to spend 10-20 on what might be no net gain. Especially with parts and labour higher than ever

Yes indeed. Typically its going to depend on other factors as well. Eg a knackered gas boiler may not affect the price of a house if there is no direct substitute.
But say your neighbours identical house is for sale and the only difference is that they have a brand new boiler and your is old and knackered.
You may get lucky, the buyer may not notice and value the houses the same, or you may get unlucky, the prospective buyer views both houses and your neighbour mentions the brand new £2k boiler.
The prospective buyer says to you, i actually like your house but you need to knock off the price of a new boiler to match the prospect of next door.

Realistically most of the time you kind of get to pass the problem on, people overlook and put up with kitchen/bathroom/heating/windows etc until they get to a certain point of bad.
At that point values will certainly reflect a required modernisation.

As far as ASHP agree, right now there is plenty of nonsense and everyone knows or read a report of someone whos bills went up.

Solar was the same, it knocks value off your house yadda yadda, but now ist seeming that in many cases its now a positive.
Its probably not a positive in that 100% of what you spent will be added to the house value, but its one of them soft choose house A over B for a little more factors.
If bills stay high then already equipped or potential to be equipped houses will be worth more.
For example my next house if we move, the potential solar will be one of the must haves (even if it already exists).

If your only concern is minimum cost to you and screw everything else then yeah ASAP and much green stuff is very much not your bag.

 

[Caracus2k]

Sorry but in this regard, efficiency, hes right and your wrong.

I agree when talking about efficency for the amount of work done compared to the energy released by a process.

But this sentence is still nonsense...

Electricity doesn't cause heat, e.g. an electric motor creates mechanical power. Inefficiencies can cause heat

Electricity (say from a battery) is more a more efficient way to turn stored energy into kinetic energy vs an ICE burning pretty anything but all that energy still ends up as heat. The important thing is that more useful work is completed in the process.

'Inefficiencies' don't cause the heat. The heat is the inevitable outcome regardless.

A less efficient engine will of course emit more heat to do the same amount of work as a less more effient one but this isn't the same as saying:

Electricity doesn't cause heat, e.g. an electric motor creates mechanical power.

and

Inefficiencies can cause heat

 

[413x]

speak for yourself. I am in the process of doing it and am almost all there aside from the gas boiler .. but when that gets EOL that will be gone too.

I am not saying people should rip out a working boiler, but when it comes time to replace if your house is suitable it makes sense to replace with something more environmentally sustainable even IF you plan to sell the house.

I agree government help is needed for the big stuff but basic insulation is easy (it was the 2nd job we did after new windows and doors)

the new octopus ASHP they are claiming is free with the grant Inc water tank if your pipes and rads are ok. around £3k if you need new pipes and rads (unless I read it wrong)

if you need a new boiler that is if anything cheaper than a decent quality gas boiler

That's worth a look (our boiler is 20 years old tank system)

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

speak for yourself. I am in the process of doing it and am almost all there aside from the gas boiler .. but when that gets EOL that will be gone too.

I am not saying people should rip out a working boiler, but when it comes time to replace if your house is suitable it makes sense to replace with something more environmentally sustainable even IF you plan to sell the house.

I agree government help is needed for the big stuff but basic insulation is easy (it was the 2nd job we did after new windows and doors)

the new octopus ASHP they are claiming is free with the grant Inc water tank if your pipes and rads are ok. around £3k if you need new pipes and rads (unless I read it wrong)

if you need a new boiler that is if anything cheaper than a decent quality gas boiler

Your half right.

A couple of us have quotes for unsurveyed props it must be confirmed. In the high 3.xk range.
Thats for the pump, the storage tank, all odds and ends and it says radiator changes.*
This is after the gov rebate. but pre the extra £2500. So assuming its passed on that would be a system installed for low £1.x

I also got a price from the installer (fixed) of repiping. That was again high £3.xk
However afterwards I checked and my piping is within the range they said would be fine. Its fine down to 10mm (which is a smidge thinner than a AAA battery). Mine is that piping so in theory is fine.

* The rad changes I believe are NOT new rads but minor changes required if any. Such as I would guess maybe thermostatic valves.

Certainly the expectation they gave was if you have 10mm pipe or above then you do not need any fundamental changes to the heating system.
No new rads, no replacing pipework etc.

So for me assuming I passed the survey my bill would be low £1.x k and that would be below the replacement cost of a gas boiler. Mine would be around the £2.5k mark.

 

[bigmike20vt]

That's worth a look (our boiler is 20 years old tank system)

let me see if I can dig out details. I may have misread as I thought it seemed cheap

 

[bigmike20vt]

Your half right.

A couple of us have quotes for unsurveyed props it must be confirmed. In the high 3.xk range.
Thats for the pump, the storage tank, all odds and ends and it says radiator changes.*
This is after the gov rebate. but pre the extra £2500. So assuming its passed on that would be a system installed for low £1.x

I also got a price from the installer (fixed) of repiping. That was again high £3.xk
However afterwards I checked and my piping is within the range they said would be fine. Its fine down to 10mm (which is a smidge thinner than a AAA battery). Mine is that piping so in theory is fine.

* The rad changes I believe are NOT new rads but minor changes required if any. Such as I would guess maybe thermostatic valves.

Certainly the expectation they gave was if you have 10mm pipe or above then you do not need any fundamental changes to the heating system.
No new rads, no replacing pipework etc.

So for me assuming I passed the survey my bill would be low £1.x k and that would be below the replacement cost of a gas boiler. Mine would be around the £2.5k mark.

ahh ok. I only glanced as my boiler is still in warranty it's false economy both in money and sustainability terms to rip out a modern well functioning device

 

[413x]

let me see if I can dig out details. I may have misread as I thought it seemed cheap

It does seem very cheap

 

[bigmike20vt]

Octopus Energy unveils next stage in smart heat revolution at Energy Tech Summit

octopus.energy

 

[413x]

Your half right.

A couple of us have quotes for unsurveyed props it must be confirmed. In the high 3.xk range.
Thats for the pump, the storage tank, all odds and ends and it says radiator changes.*
This is after the gov rebate. but pre the extra £2500. So assuming its passed on that would be a system installed for low £1.x

I also got a price from the installer (fixed) of repiping. That was again high £3.xk
However afterwards I checked and my piping is within the range they said would be fine. Its fine down to 10mm (which is a smidge thinner than a AAA battery). Mine is that piping so in theory is fine.

* The rad changes I believe are NOT new rads but minor changes required if any. Such as I would guess maybe thermostatic valves.

Certainly the expectation they gave was if you have 10mm pipe or above then you do not need any fundamental changes to the heating system.
No new rads, no replacing pipework etc.

So for me assuming I passed the survey my bill would be low £1.x k and that would be below the replacement cost of a gas boiler. Mine would be around the £2.5k mark.

Looks like we have that 10mm piping if by 10mm you can put calipers on the pipe that(for example) feeds the rads and it says near enough 10mm

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

I agree when talking about efficency for the amount of work done compared to the energy released by a process.

But this sentence is still nonsense...



Electricity (say from a battery) is more a more efficient way to turn stored energy into kinetic energy vs an ICE burning pretty anything but all that energy still ends up as heat. The important thing is that more useful work is completed in the process.

'Inefficiencies' don't cause the heat. The heat is the inevitable outcome regardless.

A less efficient engine will of course emit more heat to do the same amount of work as a less more effient one but this isn't the same as saying:



and

It doesn't still end up as heat.
Heat (unless the target) is a by product of energy conversion. As we convert energy we cannot do so perfectly from one form to another.
Which form to which form will affect the efficiency and hence the by product heat generated from the amount of energy we did not convert.

Eg my pump storage example, I use 1kwh pumping 100 litres of water up hill.
I never do anything with those 100 litres again.
But whilst doing it, 500wh were lost.
500wh were likely turned to heat. The other 500wh were "permanently" stored by the water never being released and the energy they stored never being consumed.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

Looks like we have that 10mm piping if by 10mm you can put calipers on the pipe that(for example) feeds the rads and it says near enough 10mm

Thats what I believe they mean yes.
I will ask him again since hes calling me back but I questioned in regards pipe and he said 10mm is fine. Its normally measured by the outside dimensions not the inside bore.

There is a heat pump thread in home and garden by the way that we are talking about this.

Here are the details from my quote
"Hi there,

Thanks so much for your interest in a heat pump with Octopus Energy. We're delighted to say that from everything you've told us, we can offer the following fixed price for your installation:

£3800 (0% VAT)​

What's included in your fixed price?​

Your quote includes all the things you'll need to upgrade your home with low-carbon home heating, that includes:

• A market-leading Daikin air source heat pump
• A compatible hot water cylinder
• Any necessary radiator changes
• Plumbing & electrical bits needed to fit your new heating system
• £5,000 Boiler Upgrade Scheme grant (we apply for this grant on your behalf)
• All delivery and labour cost"

Sorry for dodgy formatting

 

[.:MBK:.]

My main issue, bar cost, is hot water. Modern small homes aren't exactly the most compatible with water storage

 

[Caracus2k]

It doesn't still end up as heat.
Heat (unless the target) is a by product of energy conversion. As we convert energy we cannot do so perfectly from one form to another.
Which form to which form will affect the efficiency and hence the by product heat generated from the amount of energy we did not convert.

Eg my pump storage example, I use 1kwh pumping 100 litres of water up hill.
I never do anything with those 100 litres again.
But whilst doing it, 500wh were lost.
500wh were likely turned to heat. The other 500wh were "permanently" stored by the water never being released and the energy they stored never being consumed.

The energy released from a battery or from burning fossil fuels ends up as heat its what it does on the route that matters.

Or does the kinetic energy of a car being driven down the road somehow break the 1st rule of thermodynamics?

 

[413x]

Thats what I believe they mean yes.
I will ask him again since hes calling me back but I questioned in regards pipe and he said 10mm is fine. Its normally measured by the outside dimensions not the inside bore.

There is a heat pump thread in home and garden by the way that we are talking about this.

Here are the details from my quote
"Hi there,

Thanks so much for your interest in a heat pump with Octopus Energy. We're delighted to say that from everything you've told us, we can offer the following fixed price for your installation:

£3800 (0% VAT)​

What's included in your fixed price?​

Your quote includes all the things you'll need to upgrade your home with low-carbon home heating, that includes:

• A market-leading Daikin air source heat pump
• A compatible hot water cylinder
• Any necessary radiator changes
• Plumbing & electrical bits needed to fit your new heating system
• £5,000 Boiler Upgrade Scheme grant (we apply for this grant on your behalf)
• All delivery and labour cost"

Sorry for dodgy formatting

I wonder if having the tank already helps at all? I expect need a new tank. But can't be a negative?

I popped my details in, unfortunately can't serve my postcode though

If my cost came in at under 3k I'd probably go for it (if it is viable)

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

The energy released from a battery or from burning fossil fuels ends up as heat its what it does on the route that matters.

Or does the kinetic energy of a car being driven down the road somehow break the 1st rule of thermodynamics?

The car makes a complicated model.
Stick to an easier one, i've demonstrated above one of the simplest.

If you can explain how you think the stored water is going to turn the other 500wh into heat we can go into the in depth way that all the energy the fuel has been converted into could be turned into heat.

I will give you a tip. You cannot. That 500wh can only be released by moving the water. Otherwise we could magically create energy by waiting until it had been converted and then releasing it to generate energy.

 

[Caracus2k]

The car makes a complicated model.
Stick to an easier one, i've demonstrated above one of the simplest.

If you can explain how you think the stored water is going to turn the other 500wh into heat we can go into the in depth way that all the energy the fuel has been converted into could be turned into heat.

I will give you a tip. You cannot. That 500wh can only be released by moving the water. Otherwise we could magically create energy by waiting until it had been converted and then releasing it to generate energy.

Your pump model makes no sense in this context.

You have turned one form of energy into another form and stored it there.

That isn't what is happening with a car. The main 'desired' output of energy from a vehicle is kinetic energy. That kinetic energy is then going to end up as heat from things like friction.

You can save a little energy by having systems like regenerative breaking but that's obviously working on the other side of the equation by reducing the amount to kinetic energy being used to propel the vehicle in a given direction, which is the opppsite of the main purpose of the engine/ motor (namely to cause the vehicle to be able to move and accelerate)

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

I wonder if having the tank already helps at all? I expect need a new tank. But can't be a negative?

I popped my details in, unfortunately can't serve my postcode though

If my cost came in at under 3k I'd probably go for it (if it is viable)

Would replace my tank. My quote was slightly higher than the other I have seen, but I entered a slightly higher Sqm.
When I spoke to them and said about the pipework he gave me the number to replace it all, and at that point asked for number of rooms, but said of course its a significant amount of work. Floorboards up etc.

I believe the main point is now that the ASHP are supplying water thats basically the same temp as a boiler. So the need for any changes are basically minimal.
If however you had a badly insulated house then I think it could be different.

My worst day for energy last winter in regards gas was 73kWh. Thats heating, water and hob.
Hob tends to be naff all so lets ignore that.
My other half likes to have hot baths so probably one of them, and by hot I mean, I would look like a lobster. Lets assume 10kWh for hot water.
That leaves 63kWh of gas usage for heating.
Lets also assume efficiency of 85%, I believe real world thats probably in the range for my boiler. So 0.85 x 63 = 54kWh say.

It was 17th Dec btw, a Saturday so that will pretty much confirm the hot bath was a certainty. Common for her to have one late afternoon.
Since it was A saturday the heating would be like 8am to 10pm. So 14 hours. I would need to add 3.8kWh on a simple steady model to maintain my desired temp.
Which would have been 20 or 21 at that point I assume. Maybe slightly lower, certainly not below 19.

If you look at the initial energy though, its quite high. IIRC the usage would be like 8kwh for the first two 30 minute breakdowns then far less through the day topping up.
That partly highlights the issue with heatpumps, it would fall short initially but be fine later. So I would probably have needed to start it 30 minutes earlier to reach temps at the same point.

The key is then being able to add a relatively small amount constantly to stay topped up. The more inefficient your property the more top up you need.
This is the big risk IMO outside large bills. Gas boilers are really good for high initial peak input, lots of energy into the water to quickly heat.
Thats limited with heat pumps.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

Your pump model makes no sense in this context.

You have turned one form of energy into another form and stored it there.

That isn't what is happening with a car. The main 'desired' output of energy from a vehicle is kinetic energy. That kinetic energy is then going to end up as heat from things like friction.

You can save a little energy by having systems like regenerative breaking but that's obviously working on the other side of the equation by reducing the amount to kinetic energy being used to propel the vehicle in a given direction, which is the opppsite of the main purpose of the engine/ motor (namely to cause the vehicle to be able to move and accelerate)

Ok, so instead of pumping water up hill.
I take you car, I drive it up a very steep hill from the bottom and park it at the top.

Have I converted 100% of the energy to heat.
Or have I converted part of the energy to potential?