EV general discussion

[m4rmite]

Hah! I was waiting for someone to use that one on me.

I guess they need to make sure they connect batteries from the top and not the bottom of the pack





Good, so we have established we don't have an electricity shortage - so that means there is no need to ration car charging, and we can allow everyone to fill to 100% without any penalty.

80 - 100% takes a similar time a 20-80%.
If you want to sit there then carry on.

 

[Kenai]

So the problem is that demand for chargers is greater than the supply.

There are 2 ways to fix this...

(1) Increase prices to drive down demand, and increase your profits with 0 additional investments.

(2) Increase supply by building more chargers, which requires investment.



I disagree with (1) being the route that's followed, however it sounds like everyone else in this thread is happy for that to be the way forward.

Correction "demand is greater than the supply on a handful of occasions" which significantly alters whether option 1 or 2 is more sensible.

If it was your own money, would you spend it on a bunch of chargers that sit unused 360 days a year?

But that "trickle charge" mechanism is exactly how they (the car company) designed their product.

If they didn't want people to trickle charge, then why design the car so that it needs to have that last 10% to be trickle charged?

Because they're working within the limitations of our current technology and the most effective way to use it. If they could make the battery charge to 100% at full speed they would.

They won't do this by virtually limiting capacity though, as per your earlier suggestion, because you're then reducing available capacity of all of your cars to solve a problem that only affects a tiny portion of owners and only affects them once or twice a year.

 

[rypt]

80 - 100% takes a similar time a 20-80%.
If you want to sit there then carry on.

That last xx% is working as designed by the car company.

What I am against is this "cakeism" attitude - where the car companies want to claim the "speed of charging" for the 20-80%, but the range for the full "100%" - and then actively discourage you from using the product as advertised for that 100% by imposing extra charges for doing that last 20% charge.

If you didn't want people to charge to 100%, then don't advertise range based on 100% - instead lock the batteries to never be able to charge beyond 80% so that your advertising claims for speed of charging, battery capacity and range are all based on the same figure as what you actually want people to use at your chargers.

 

[Simon]

So the problem is that demand for chargers is greater than the supply.

There are 2 ways to fix this...

(1) Increase prices to drive down demand, and increase your profits with 0 additional investments.

(2) Increase supply by building more chargers, which requires investment.



I disagree with (1) being the route that's followed, however it sounds like everyone else in this thread is happy for that to be the way forward.

Getting power to sites is actually the bottle neck.

As a user of an EV I want more destination chargers tbh.

 

[Simon]

But that "trickle charge" mechanism is exactly how they (the car company) designed their product.

If they didn't want people to trickle charge, then why design the car so that it needs to have that last 10% to be trickle charged?

You are aware charging isn’t 100% efficient ? Some cars are designed for ‘area under the curve’ but like most things people get obsessed by peak numbers.

Tbh public chargers are just a boost for anyone who has an EV with proper charging. If you rely on them then you probably are paying more for energy than a ICE car. I’ve never ever needed 100% on a public charger so this whole discussion is quite irrelevant really.

 

[rypt]

Getting power to sites is actually the bottle neck.

We don't have a shortage of power, so I can therefore only put it down to shortage of investment (in order to protect profits)

 

[Simon]

That last xx% is working as designed by the car company.

What I am against is this "cakeism" attitude - where the car companies want to claim the "speed of charging" for the 20-80%, but the range for the full "100%" - and then actively discourage you from using the product as advertised for that 100% by imposing extra charges for doing that last 20% charge.

If you didn't want people to charge to 100%, then don't advertise range based on 100% - instead lock the batteries to never be able to charge beyond 80% so that your advertising claims for speed of charging, battery capacity and range are all based on the same figure as what you actually want people to use at your chargers.

Tesla is the only car company with a charge limit. Indeed none of the other car makers either: have charging networks or design their own batteries

Again you aren’t listening. Nothing wrong with 100% for the OEM. It’s just not advised to have the battery sat full for long periods.

Don’t know why you are confusing the charger operator with the car ??

What EV do you drive. How many times have you found not being able to charge over 90% an issue ??

 

[Simon]

We don't have a shortage of power, so I can therefore only put it down to shortage of investment (in order to protect profits)

The DNO have to connect the sites up and it’s a long waiting list. There are solar sites waiting 2 years to get on the grid. Don’t be so cynical.

You couldn’t just stick 1MW of grid demand wherever you want and expect the power cables to be there !

 

[rypt]

Tbh public chargers are just a boost for anyone who has an EV with proper charging. If you rely on them then you probably are paying more for energy than a ICE car. I’ve never ever needed 100% on a public charger so this whole discussion is quite irrelevant really.

What do you mean by "proper charging"?

My "guess" is that you are talking about being able to charge at home - but I guess that means that you are saying that EVs are a luxury only for those who have houses?


Going to point back to my earlier post on this one...

I'll go fully electric the day that either

(1) I live in a house with private off-street parking where I can install a charger

or

(2) the government / developers / council find a way to solve the fact that my apartment building complex has ~85 car parking spaces, but only 1 electric charger

 

[Simon]

What do you mean by "proper charging"?

My "guess" is that you are talking about being able to charge at home - but I guess that means that you are saying that EVs are a luxury only for those who have houses?

In your language. This would be peak charge speed of the charger for the whole charge. You seem to have an issue with cars that slow down the charge rate to protect the life of the battery and stop them setting on fire

Well I don’t have a home charger but charge at 7kW for all my use except trips over 180 miles

 

[rypt]

The DNO have to connect the sites up and it’s a long waiting list. There are solar sites waiting 2 years to get on the grid. Don’t be so cynical.

You couldn’t just stick 1MW of grid demand wherever you want and expect the power cables to be there !

No - I would expect to have to pay for those power cables to be put into place - which brings it back to my point, lack of investment by prioritising profits

 

[Simon]

No - I would expect to have to pay for those power cables to be put into place - which brings it back to my point, lack of investment by prioritising profits

Or put in the battery equipt chargers of course.

There’s loads of investment. Again you don’t have an EV so you little are arguing about something you have no experience of

 

[jpaul]

80 - 100% takes a similar time a 20-80%.
If you want to sit there then carry on.

not sure if the efficiency of the battery charge is also reduced during that last 80-100 - double whammy with any premium tesla charge, for topping off.

 

[Kenai]

No - I would expect to have to pay for those power cables to be put into place - which brings it back to my point, lack of investment by prioritising profits

Are you expecting charging infrastructure to be installed and paid for on a charity basis?

 

[Simon]

Are you expecting charging infrastructure to be installed and paid for on a charity basis?

He also pays the gas man to supply gas to his house and ignore transco

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Well this took quite a turn and is very much a new one for the worried EV arguments people come up with.

The 100% rapid charger thing is almost always born out of ignorance, laziness or selfishness, sometimes all three.

No - I would expect to have to pay for those power cables to be put into place - which brings it back to my point, lack of investment by prioritising profits

There is no shortage of investment for EV charging infrastructure from EV charging companies. They have £billions sat there waiting for the power networks to connect their projects.

 

[rypt]

Are you expecting charging infrastructure to be installed and paid for on a charity basis?

No - I am expecting for the revenue earned by the charging providers to go partially get used to build more infrastructure.

I don't believe petrol stations were paid for on a "charity basis"

 

[rypt]

There is no shortage of investment for EV charging infrastructure from EV charging companies. They have £billions sat there waiting for the power networks to connect their projects.

This is the part that doesn't make sense to me

I'd expect that as part of creating a new EV charging zone, the company would have to apply for planning permission, engage the power networks, etc.

I would think that whatever agreement was reached between all the parties involved would include the EV charging company paying for the power network to provide the necessary connectivity within a specific timeframe for the project.

 

[Kenai]

No - I am expecting for the revenue earned by the charging providers to go partially get used to build more infrastructure.

I don't believe petrol stations were paid for on a "charity basis"

Well then you can't expect them to install a load of capacity that will sit unused for most of its time, unless rather than minor 'congestion' pricing on occasion, you'd prefer to see permanently higher pricing all round to pay for 95% unused infrastructure?

 

[rypt]

Don’t know why you are confusing the charger operator with the car ??

The discussion was specifically about how Tesla charges more in the US to trickle charge - and they are both the car company and the charging operator in that case