Sennheiser HD 6XX VS Hifiman HE400SE for Gaming and mostly EDM listening

The HD650 is good for games, that is my decade long experience of using them in competetive gaming.

The planars that have been released since those years have passed are obviously better for games.

Does that make the HD650 bad for games?

No, which is what you are making them out to be.
 
I understand you have a preference for planer's but planar technically doesn't inherently make them better for gaming, or over that of dynamic drivers in general, it's a preference, no one driver technology wins out across the board, primary it comes down to the tuning and materials used ie, housing/cup design that impacts the acoustics, your problem is you think because it's newer technology it has to be better.

PLANAR WALL OF SOUND RARRRRR!!!!!

The 650's are not only subjectively poor (or ok according to ratings) in staging and imaging but also measure poorly in terms of PRTF accuracy which at the moment is the best quantifiable measurement of soundstage we have right now, where headphone like the HD800S and Arya measure quite a bit better which line up with subjective impressions.

https://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/sennheiser/hd-650 - HD650

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https://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/hifiman/arya-stealth-magnet-version - Arya


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https://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/sennheiser/hd-800-s - HD800S


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Magic ears.

HD800S, is a dynamic driver, smaller than your WALL OF SOUND planar, but it is regarded as one of the best gaming headphones in the world, subjective opinions of the headphone squarely line up with PRTF measurements here, but I know you wasn't a fan of the headphone which is perfectly fine, I'm ok with that, I'm not here to shove my preferences down other people throats.
 
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Rtings don't always get things right, and besides measurements don't dictate what something actually sounds like, with displays that's a different matter but even then rtings measurements don't match up with HWUB findings in an example of OLED burn in, for example. Some of the biggest AV reviewers online have stated that too, that measurements don't dictate sound, as everyone hears things differently, and this is why ASR forums gets laughed at quite often in other communities.

Anyway I've said what was necessary, I found the HD650 perfectly fine for gaming, as did many others and we literally used them for collective decades for that purpose, your measurements may show contrary to personal experience, but that doesn't matter.

And neither have I shoved my view down anyone’s neck, as always, I have just shared my experience , which you can disagree with, but you consistently and in multiple threads keep nitpicking and remarking back to measurements or whatever else which is kind of strange considering you just said you don't mind me having an opinion/preference.

Isn't that what a discussion board is all about, to share experiences and preferences...

The long and short is that I don't care about measurements, I only care about having an awareness of them. What matters more is what my eyes see and my ears hear, and it's that experience I value more than anything, and it seems others do too.

You can call them "magic ears" if you want, but they haven't let me down yet and it's very easy to pick apart sound from something to my ears without having to spend weeks A/Bing and looking at graphs.
 
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"Rtings don't always get things right, and besides measurements don't dictate what something actually sounds like, with displays that's a different matter but even then rtings measurements don't match up with HWUB findings in an example of OLED burn in, for example."

I know Rtings don't always get things right, no site does, the 'controversy' regarding the burn-in just highlighted the challenges of translating lab results into real-world user experiences and the subjective nature of some performance metrics, they do thousands of tests and measurement's so it's going to happen sometimes, their PRTF measurements are well respected and have been consistently on point matching subjective impressions.

"And neither have I shoved my view down anyone’s neck, as always, I have just shared my experience , which you can disagree with, but you consistently and in multiple threads keep nitpicking and remarking back to measurements or whatever else which is kind of strange considering you just said you don't mind me having an opinion/preference.

Isn't that what a discussion board is all about, to share experiences and preferences..."


You go beyond just sharing experiences though by needlessly and regularly including little veiled digs at other components or companies trying to highlight how much better your stuff is all the time, last time it was the framerate of the VU meter on the Audiolab headphone amp, you had to remark how poor it was and how amazing yours is at 60fps! (cue animated GIF), then it was putting down the cost of the Quad amp saying "MQA TAX" trying to make a play that it's overpriced due to that, when I've done extensive research into the extra cost of MQA in components and it's marginal,


"measurements don't dictate what something actually sounds like"

Ummm, they do, if you understand them, it's statements like this which I find unbelievable and I'm not even a massive measurement nerd, it may not always translate well as you also have your own HRTF to contend with which will change the FR also and that is not even delving into psychoacoustics and cognitive bias.

So again, more misinformation, same with R2R vs Delta sigma, same with Planar vs other driver technology, you believe that HD650 are good for gaming even though measurements and majority of users say otherwise, misunderstanding audiophile terminologies, the list goes on and on, and you rarely ever admit being wrong, I can only sit back and read so much over the years, I've been silent for too long.
 
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I'm not going to interject here beyond giving personal impressions of the HD650's, they're one of the first "big" purchases I made in terms of audiophile headphones a couple of decades + ago at this point. I've went through many headphones over the years before settling on my endgame, which I've been happy with for many years now (LCD2 + WA7). Most I've tried or spent time with I've sold on or gifted to friends/family, one of the few cans I've kept around are my trusty old HD650's and the Bottlehead Crack AMP I bought specifically for use with them. It's not often I get them out anymore but I do love the way they sound and there's a sense of nostalgia in there too. For gaming I found them middling at best, better than "gaming headsets" by a mile back when I got them, and probably the majority of those knocking around today for that matter. That said, for positional audio I've always found them underwhelming, and even extremely costly compared to other options on the market, even those from Sennheiser themselves.

The HD650's cost me in the region of £300 back in the day, they were noticeably worse than the HD598's I owned for competitive/positional gaming which came in at all of £90 or so when I bought them. I'd never recommend them for anything other than music, and even then for specific genres, maybe if you had mixed usage with a musical lean they'd be worth going for but otherwise your money is better spent elsewhere for a gaming specific use case.

I've followed MLE's "gaming" impressions for years and more often than not my opinions line up with his, worth a read if you're on the hunt:


That said, I also feel that HD650's require a damned good amp to really shine and I feel many use them on less suitable hardware.
 
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From my experience of the HE4XX/HE400SE/Sundara/Sundara Closed,they really need some degree of amplification to sound OK. But Planar headphones do tend to weigh more than many dynamic driver headphones.

Has nobody mentioned the Aune AR5000? They are perfect for gaming:
1.)Lightweight
2.)Very easy to drive - they will run fine off a decent motherboard audio output or USB dongle like the FiiO JA11
3.)Have fantastic spatial separation
4.)A sound signature reminiscent of a Sennheiser,but less forward vocals and better bass

I wanted something that can do both music and gaming and they seemed to be a good compromise. They are around £280 in the UK,or around £150 excluding VAT during sales from Aliexpress.

I was running them off my DAC and headphone amplifier,but sound good enough plugged into the motherboard for gaming.

If you want to try something Planar - FiiO introduced the FT1 PRO this year. Advanced MP3 Players can have them for under £160 if there is a code available.
 
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From my experience of the HE4XX/HE400SE/Sundara/Sundara Closed,they really need some degree of amplification to sound OK. But Planar headphones do tend to weigh more than many dynamic driver headphones.

Has nobody mentioned the Aune AR5000? They are perfect for gaming:

To be fair I think the OP did raise the question about two specific models (HD6XX & HE400SE), but there are arguably going to be other headphones/sets for gaming; AR5000, TYGR 300R, DT 880/770, PC38X, HD 505/550, R50/30X (minus a missing mic on the 'phones) all sping to mind. The AR5000 has had rave reviews all over, I think the only thing that hurt these in the UK a bit is their lack of availability in certain established retailers. But they could be a great choice.

Re: the HD 6x0 and gaming and I do think there are better options, however having now used a few different models the weaknesses aren't quite as they made out to be. The HD 6x0 have a very strong left/right imaging (that so called '3-blob' although I'm not sure this is the best way to explain it) which can be very useful in certain games (i.e. Counter Strike etc.). They can be enhanced with virtual surround, or 3D audio. I've sat down and used the HD 6XX & 58X with the Division 2 and they are fine. Albeit the PC38X, or TYGR beat them out easily. Indeed they have some qualities that I do like for extended wearing; not fatiguing, very light (264g - under that magical 300g's imo) and are generally very comfortable. The HD 58X are better probably, because of the slight v-shaped profile, but certainly if I could only have one headphone it would arguably be the 6XX/650 becuase of their strengths.
 
To be fair I think the OP did raise the question about two specific models (HD6XX & HE400SE), but there are arguably going to be other headphones/sets for gaming; AR5000, TYGR 300R, DT 880/770, PC38X, HD 505/550, R50/30X (minus a missing mic on the 'phones) all sping to mind. The AR5000 has had rave reviews all over, I think the only thing that hurt these in the UK a bit is their lack of availability in certain established retailers. But they could be a great choice.

Re: the HD 6x0 and gaming and I do think there are better options, however having now used a few different models the weaknesses aren't quite as they made out to be. The HD 6x0 have a very strong left/right imaging (that so called '3-blob' although I'm not sure this is the best way to explain it) which can be very useful in certain games (i.e. Counter Strike etc.). They can be enhanced with virtual surround, or 3D audio. I've sat down and used the HD 6XX & 58X with the Division 2 and they are fine. Albeit the PC38X, or TYGR beat them out easily. Indeed they have some qualities that I do like for extended wearing; not fatiguing, very light (264g - under that magical 300g's imo) and are generally very comfortable. The HD 58X are better probably, because of the slight v-shaped profile, but certainly if I could only have one headphone it would arguably be the 6XX/650 becuase of their strengths.

I bought a pair of AR5000 on a whim and they work very well for gaming - the reviews talk about their expansive soundstage and I tend to agree. They won't have the sub-bass a Planar will have,but the fact they will run easily off a motherboard output or el-cheap dongle is also a plus. I got my pair from Elise Audio,although Aune have a EU store:

Amazon USA also sell them.
 
I bought a pair of AR5000 on a whim and they work very well for gaming - the reviews talk about their expansive soundstage and I tend to agree. They won't have the sub-bass a Planar will have,but the fact they will run easily off a motherboard output or el-cheap dongle is also a plus. I got my pair from Elise Audio,although Aune have a EU store:

Amazon USA also sell them.
Interesting suggestion and not something that I'd even heard off/about before.
So good discussion around the HD6XX (well hd650) I see too. I've briefly listened to a friend's HD6XX and for music they were enjoyable and pleasant, gaming I didn't get to try anything that needed really good positional audio, as I tried some sim racing with them and a VR headset.

While I did send the HE4XX back as I was still getting headaches from them. I did get a Qudelix Bluetooth amp and that's something I wish I'd bought ages ago. It's very handy and sounds good.
 
Bucking the trend a bit of certain posters - while the HD600 series are nice for single player gaming - they wouldn't be my first option(s) for competitive multiplayer gaming for want of a better way to put it the drivers are a touch lazy/unhurried.
 
Bucking the trend a bit of certain posters - while the HD600 series are nice for single player gaming - they wouldn't be my first option(s) for competitive multiplayer gaming for want of a better way to put it the drivers are a touch lazy/unhurried.

The best situational audio headphones I've used outside of planars for multi are still the HD598's tbh. I'm a hardcore planar type and have been for years, and I'd say some of them offer amazing positional.

I own some old school HD650's, would never use them for gaming, and frankly I think they sound like hot garbage outside of a damned good amp like the Bottlehead.

HE400SE work well, but they're problematic in certain ways and outside of music I'd say amp sensitive.

LCD2's are god level, I own them but again amp/dac level becomes a massive expense to get the most.

If you're into twitch shooters and want surround some things will add unwanted latency. If you want the second best with a cheap setup HD598, DT990 (tweak the treble), and Q701's (there was a point they used to go for £100 or so many moons ago).
 
and frankly I think they sound like hot garbage outside of a damned good amp like the Bottlehead.

Stick them on any random mainstream device and chances are you'll get muddy low end and lots of treble veil but with a decent amp I've not heard any other headphones, outside of ludicrously expensive stuff I couldn't justify spending the money on, that can bring physical texture to each individual instrument, the lush unhurried presentation without smoothing of detail, etc. like the HD600/650 can. But personally I think that goes against them for hardcore gaming use.
 
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Stick them on any random mainstream device and chances are you'll get muddy low end and lots of treble veil but with a decent amp I've not heard any other headphones, outside of ludicrously expensive stuff I couldn't justify spending the money on, that can bring physical texture to each individual instrument, the lush unhurried presentation without smoothing of detail, etc. like the HD600/650 can. But personally I think that goes against them for hardcore gaming use.

Absolutely. I bought a pre-built Bottlehead Crack for my HD650's and for music they shine. I'd argue they're the most amplification sensitive headphones I have ever, ever used by a huge margin.

The veil vanishes when you amp them well, they become spectacular in almost all respects, but they're still **** gaming headphones imo.

The 400SE are often on sale for cheap as chips if you want to faff around, but it's very "entry level planar" while being overly sensitive. The fact they can be had for roughly £100 or less via Amazon is impressive and they'll run on a wet fart. I use them as a suggestion to experience planars rather than buy into them, but I feel even a **** planar is better for situational than most standard sets. There's a weird immediacy in response you cannot understand without having used them.
 
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Absolutely. I bought a pre-built Bottlehead Crack for my HD650's and for music they shine.

I had someone suggest that the Bottlehead is the way to go after a HD 6x0 post on reddit. Felt like they kinda snapped after I'd suggested an Xduoo Tube, or Felik Echo would be easier upgrade paths being in the UK.

It looks like you can order the Bottlehead kit directly from their website and maybe once in a blue moon they come up on eBay. But I wonder how much difference there would be in say a Bottlehead Crack ($500 with speedball) vs. Xduoo TA-66 (£250) vs. Felik Echo (£850). Would they all sound great? And how much would the jump up in each pricing tier be worth it?

PS. These aren't question directly posed at yourself, but certainly things I'm pondering.
 
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Interesting suggestion and not something that I'd even heard off/about before.
So good discussion around the HD6XX (well hd650) I see too. I've briefly listened to a friend's HD6XX and for music they were enjoyable and pleasant, gaming I didn't get to try anything that needed really good positional audio, as I tried some sim racing with them and a VR headset.

While I did send the HE4XX back as I was still getting headaches from them. I did get a Qudelix Bluetooth amp and that's something I wish I'd bought ages ago. It's very handy and sounds good.
The AR5000 are an amazing pair - also are very light and incredibly comfortable.
 
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I had someone suggest that the Bottlehead is the way to go after a HD 6x0 post on reddit. Felt like they kinda snapped after I'd suggested an Xduoo Tube, or Felik Echo would be easier upgrade paths being in the UK.

It looks like you can order the Bottlehead kit directly from their website and maybe once in a blue moon they come up on eBay. But I wonder how much difference there would be in say a Bottlehead Crack ($500 with speedball) vs. Xduoo TA-66 (£250) vs. Felik Echo (£850). Would they all sound great? And how much would the jump up in each pricing tier be worth it?

PS. These aren't question directly posed at yourself, but certainly things I'm pondering.
Is that how much they go for these days? Good lord. I bought one from a forum, I think it was the Head-Fi market section for under £150, granted were talking a good few years back now.
 
Is that how much they go for these days? Good lord. I bought one from a forum, I think it was the Head-Fi market section for under £150, granted were talking a good few years back now.

Unless I'm misreading it, it comes up as $472.50 on the website (w/Speedball upgrade kit; $369 without) but I would imagine that there would be shipping and import duties on top. So maybe c.£450-500. Plus you then need to build the kit. There seems to be sellers on etsy who do build, but again US-based and the price goes over £1,000 (albeit very custom with some very fancy wood options, volume controls etc.). There was one stock BHC that sold on eBay in August for just over £300.
 
Unless I'm misreading it, it comes up as $472.50 on the website (w/Speedball upgrade kit; $369 without) but I would imagine that there would be shipping and import duties on top. So maybe c.£450-500. Plus you then need to build the kit. There seems to be sellers on etsy who do build, but again US-based and the price goes over £1,000 (albeit very custom with some very fancy wood options, volume controls etc.). There was one stock BHC that sold on eBay in August for just over £300.
That moment when you realise you should probably get your old and often unused headphone kit insured. :cry:
 
That moment when you realise you should probably get your old and often unused headphone kit insured. :cry:

At least with a BHC, particularly if have some understanding of it, it should be very serviceable and easily upgraded. I don't think that's true of all audio gear.
 
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