Euthanasia need to be considered in UK?

[Vexr]

Stunning work. I take my hat off to you.

Unfortunately there are people out there that really believe this stuff.

Probably just unimportant / disturbed individuals like RFK Jr.

"Wouldn't want to be lumped in the same category as him ", said the non-player character.

I've now given a response that satisfies my conscience, unlike last weekend's rampage, so that'll do me.

 

[nheather]

I’m in favour of the assisted-dying bill, unfortunately it didn’t go far enough for me.

I do get the argument that some elderly may feel coerced into euthanasia, either by being forced or by themselves feeling that they are a burden so there absolutely needs to be some very strong controls to prevent that.

But I do get irritated by some of the arguments by opponents who simply don’t listen to what is being proposed and try to force their will on others. For example on a Radio 4 phone in, one guy explained that his father has been in a wheelchair for 15 years and his father is totally opposed to the idea and said that he will fight to live until the final hour. The son argued that under the proposed plan his father’s life would have been ended 15 years ago - which is utter rubbish because 1) he would have qualified because he was not terminally ill with expectancy of less than 6 months and 2) his dad clearly doesn’t want it so wouldn’t give permission. But because stories like this are so emotive, they are given more air-time and more weighting then arguments in favour.

So I said that the bill didn’t go far enough for me, why is that? In a word, dementia, it scares me more than anything else. I have seen my dad and my mother-in-law go through dementia, and personally, it is one of the worst things I can imagine, there is no dignity, there is no quality of life and it destroys the lives of your loved-ones left to look after you. I don’t want to go through that, I would rather die, so I would like to be able to make that instruction while I am still in full control of my mental faculties, and I really don’t understand why I cannot. But the UK scheme doesn’t even come close, and I doubt it will, even with the Swiss schemes it is a bit of a grey area.

 

[tonys]

I’m in favour of the assisted-dying bill, unfortunately it didn’t go far enough for me.

I do get the argument that some elderly may feel coerced into euthanasia, either by being forced or by themselves feeling that they are a burden so there absolutely needs to be some very strong controls to prevent that.

But I do get irritated by some of the arguments by opponents who simply don’t listen to what is being proposed and try to force their will on others. For example on a Radio 4 phone in, one guy explained that his father has been in a wheelchair for 15 years and his father is totally opposed to the idea and said that he will fight to live until the final hour. The son argued that under the proposed plan his father’s life would have been ended 15 years ago - which is utter rubbish because 1) he would have qualified because he was not terminally ill with expectancy of less than 6 months and 2) his dad clearly doesn’t want it so wouldn’t give permission. But because stories like this are so emotive, they are given more air-time and more weighting then arguments in favour.

So I said that the bill didn’t go far enough for me, why is that? In a word, dementia, it scares me more than anything else. I have seen my dad and my mother-in-law go through dementia, and personally, it is one of the worst things I can imagine, there is no dignity, there is no quality of life and it destroys the lives of your loved-ones left to look after you. I don’t want to go through that, I would rather die, so I would like to be able to make that instruction while I am still in full control of my mental faculties, and I really don’t understand why I cannot. But the UK scheme doesn’t even come close, and I doubt it will, even with the Swiss schemes it is a bit of a grey area.

A good post compared to some of the ranting we've seen on here just lately.
I can sympathise with you on the dementia and understand your attitude as well (seeing the mother in law deteriorate before our eyes).
This is such and emotive subject that it needs careful planning, implementation and reviewing to make sure everyone is aware of just what is going on.
I have no doubt that the criteria for applying for this process will ease to include other health issues like dementia but it's not likely yet.
To me it is all about having the choice. We can choose not to have medication or a procedure so why not this aspect of our life.

 

[Mr Badger]

I’m in favour of the assisted-dying bill, unfortunately it didn’t go far enough for me.

I do get the argument that some elderly may feel coerced into euthanasia, either by being forced or by themselves feeling that they are a burden so there absolutely needs to be some very strong controls to prevent that.

But I do get irritated by some of the arguments by opponents who simply don’t listen to what is being proposed and try to force their will on others. For example on a Radio 4 phone in, one guy explained that his father has been in a wheelchair for 15 years and his father is totally opposed to the idea and said that he will fight to live until the final hour. The son argued that under the proposed plan his father’s life would have been ended 15 years ago - which is utter rubbish because 1) he would have qualified because he was not terminally ill with expectancy of less than 6 months and 2) his dad clearly doesn’t want it so wouldn’t give permission. But because stories like this are so emotive, they are given more air-time and more weighting then arguments in favour.

So I said that the bill didn’t go far enough for me, why is that? In a word, dementia, it scares me more than anything else. I have seen my dad and my mother-in-law go through dementia, and personally, it is one of the worst things I can imagine, there is no dignity, there is no quality of life and it destroys the lives of your loved-ones left to look after you. I don’t want to go through that, I would rather die, so I would like to be able to make that instruction while I am still in full control of my mental faculties, and I really don’t understand why I cannot. But the UK scheme doesn’t even come close, and I doubt it will, even with the Swiss schemes it is a bit of a grey area.

Indeed. It seems the only option you have with dementia is to kill yourself off early when you still have the capacity to do so. Otherwise you have to ride it through to the end, potentially spending years locked away as little more than a vegetable, with no dignity and most likely being charged a fortune for your care. These are not good, humane choices.

 

[SexyGreyFox]

So I said that the bill didn’t go far enough for me, why is that? In a word, dementia, it scares me more than anything else. I have seen my dad and my mother-in-law go through dementia, and personally, it is one of the worst things I can imagine, there is no dignity, there is no quality of life and it destroys the lives of your loved-ones left to look after you. I don’t want to go through that, I would rather die, so I would like to be able to make that instruction while I am still in full control of my mental faculties, and I really don’t understand why I cannot. But the UK scheme doesn’t even come close, and I doubt it will, even with the Swiss schemes it is a bit of a grey area.

I've never had anybody close to me with dementia, I know plenty of other friends who have experienced it.
Can I ask would you have given permission for your dad and mother in law to be euthanized because they didn't have capacity?
I was with my best mate and his daughter last night and both of them would have said yes to both his mum and dad.
Also my work colleague would have given permission for her dad at least 3 years before his death because of his suffering.

 

[wesimmo]

Just been informed this morning my dad may be going from palliative care to End Of Life care.

He's suffered from dementia for years, the last 2/3 though he's basically been a body in the corner of the house, not the man who raised me.

It's been so hard on my mum, a massive drain on the NHS and bloody expensive to get the care we wanted for him.

I've kinda grieved a dozen times for him as he has lost capacity in stages.

While I understand all the concerns about how assisted dying might be abused, I'm 100% behind trying to make it work to save other people in his situation the pain and loss of whatever dignity he has left.

But also my mother has now started losing capacity with dementia and its a crying shame she's basically sacrificed the last few years of her life, when she might have got some joy out of it spending time with the grandkids etc while she was able, but has been tied to the house and dad.

 

[Devilman]

I've never had anybody close to me with dementia, I know plenty of other friends who have experienced it.
Can I ask would you have given permission for your dad and mother in law to be euthanized because they didn't have capacity?
I was with my best mate and his daughter last night and both of them would have said yes to both his mum and dad.
Also my work colleague would have given permission for her dad at least 3 years before his death because of his suffering.

Whilst I cannot speak for @nheather, I know in my own personal experience of dementia that my father had. 4 years of slow (and sometimes not so slow) deterioration of his physical and mental abilities until he was little more than a husk in a chair in a dementia care facility.

There is no quality of life in that existence and there is no dignity in it either.

Add to that the knowledge that my father himself had on many occasions (before dementia took hold) expressed his own personal belief that he "did not want to end up vegetating in chair" and in no way would he wanted to have "experienced" the last few years of his life the way he did.

He passed away a couple of months ago and while some may think it sounds callous, I can honestly say I am glad for it. No longer is he suffering, slowly eroding away in a chair as a shell of his former self.

Dementia is an insidious disease, by the time it has truly "taken hold" they are no longer themselves and no longer have the capacity to choose euthanasia even if the option had been available.

 

[wesimmo]

Until you've wished for a parent to die I'm not sure you can truly empathise. Its a horrible thing to have to reconcile in your own head.

 

[Mr Jack]

I've never had anybody close to me with dementia, I know plenty of other friends who have experienced it.
Can I ask would you have given permission for your dad and mother in law to be euthanized because they didn't have capacity?

I don't think there is anywhere in the world where you can give permission for someone else to receive assisted dying. It has to be the choice of the person.

My gran died after years of increasing dementia. It horrified me so much that I absolutely never want that for myself but she was fine. She was quite happy to have to have people to care for her, and seemed quite content right to the end. People are different, and that's why no-one should be deciding for anyone else in either direction.

 

[SexyGreyFox]

Until you've wished for a parent to die I'm not sure you can truly empathise. Its a horrible thing to have to reconcile in your own head.

Just to clarify I'm not judging, I was glad when my mum died in Dec 2019 because she had suffered so much with COPD, she was down to 15% lung capacity and kept begging to die.
That was also a horrible death.

 

[413x]

Okay. Do it.

Depressed teens in a snit and 20 somethings being able to access MAID (Medical Assistance In Dying) in the pioneering nation of Canada is apparently not triggering any alarm bells on this forum.

You've got to be really really depressed to kill yourself.
I suffer with depression and anxiety as do many others. I've thought about such things but never Done it. Never tried.

Even if this was open to mental health conditions it's not going to be below 18.

And to be honest, if you're in that bad a state when you're older, maybe suicide is the right thing.


We all die someday. And if you're not religious then that's it. Memories gone etc etc. So really... What does it matter? If that's what a person wants, and that's what they truely want after medical/psycho help, the maybe that's OK.

We murder people in wars and barely bat an eyelid. There are people wanting to blow boats out the water who don't care about if the people die. And at same time someone who genuinely wants to isn't allowed to?

Sometimes (often) I just can't understand some peoples views.

 

[wesimmo]

Just to clarify I'm not judging, I was glad when my mum died in Dec 2019 because she had suffered so much with COPD, she was down to 15% lung capacity and kept begging to die.
That was also a horrible death.

Sorry I didn't mean to imply I thought you were judging.

I don't think there is anywhere in the world where you can give permission for someone else to receive assisted dying. It has to be the choice of the person.

My gran died after years of increasing dementia. It horrified me so much that I absolutely never want that for myself but she was fine. She was quite happy to have to have people to care for her, and seemed quite content right to the end. People are different, and that's why no-one should be deciding for anyone else in either direction.

That's why it's hard to legislate I think. No one who knew our situation would even blink an eye if we'd had to make that decision for dad but it could easily be abused.

The problem is, in our situation, by the time dad started saying he wanted to die in his very fleeting lucid moments, I doubt he'd legally be able to self certify for assisted dying.

 

[413x]

Whilst I cannot speak for @nheather, I know in my own personal experience of dementia that my father had. 4 years of slow (and sometimes not so slow) deterioration of his physical and mental abilities until he was little more than a husk in a chair in a dementia care facility.

There is no quality of life in that existence and there is no dignity in it either.

Add to that the knowledge that my father himself had on many occasions (before dementia took hold) expressed his own personal belief that he "did not want to end up vegetating in chair" and in no way would he wanted to have "experienced" the last few years of his life the way he did.

He passed away a couple of months ago and while some may think it sounds callous, I can honestly say I am glad for it. No longer is he suffering, slowly eroding away in a chair as a shell of his former self.

Dementia is an insidious disease, by the time it has truly "taken hold" they are no longer themselves and no longer have the capacity to choose euthanasia even if the option had been available.

So my partners mums cancer journey was similar.

Towards the end she was losing her mind due to drugs and maybe the condition. By this point not only is the person dead (they aren't the same person) but they are in crippling pain, and relatives are having to watch a loved one lash out, say horrible things and the pain doesn't stop.


Now I've always supported assisted dying. Always. But I can't understand how anyone who's seen a loved one due of cancer, dementia, motor neuron etc could ever be against it.


I'm glad it seems the majority of the UK are very much in favour of it. And it's only the religious nuts and some other niches that seem to be against. I understand a bit the fear of a slippery slope... But the alternative is torture.
It would have been a disgrace if it hadn't passed with such public support

 

[wesimmo]

So my partners mums cancer journey was similar.

Towards the end she was losing her mind due to drugs and maybe the condition. By this point not only is the person dead (they aren't the same person) but they are in crippling pain, and relatives are having to watch a loved one lash out, say horrible things and the pain doesn't stop.


Now I've always supported assisted dying. Always. But I can't understand how anyone who's seen a loved one due of cancer, dementia, motor neuron etc could ever be against it.


I'm glad it seems the majority of the UK are very much in favour of it. And it's only the religious nuts and some other niches that seem to be against. I understand a bit the fear of a slippery slope... But the alternative is torture.
It would have been a disgrace if it hadn't passed with such public support

As always with these things, the vast minority of people ruin it for the whole.

As above, we couldn't have done more for dad, I hope anyway.

But my sister is an ambulance driver, single with no kids and lives nearby. My brother lives close too but has 2 teenage boys to deal with. My other sister and I live 200 miles away and have kids ourselves so haven't been able to support physically as much as we'd like.

It's therefore been left to my sister to do the horrible job that is shift work and front line NHS these days and also do a lot of caring for dad and managing mum as well. So she's burned herself out over the last few years and her relationship with mum is terrible due to the stress of it all and them taking it out on each other.

But then she deals day to day with parents who have been neglected by their kids to the extent you could well imagine those people eagerly signing off on death for the money.

 

[Penfold101]

You've got to be really really depressed to kill yourself.
I suffer with depression and anxiety as do many others. I've thought about such things but never Done it. Never tried.

Even if this was open to mental health conditions it's not going to be below 18.

And to be honest, if you're in that bad a state when you're older, maybe suicide is the right thing.


We all die someday. And if you're not religious then that's it. Memories gone etc etc. So really... What does it matter? If that's what a person wants, and that's what they truely want after medical/psycho help, the maybe that's OK.

We murder people in wars and barely bat an eyelid. There are people wanting to blow boats out the water who don't care about if the people die. And at same time someone who genuinely wants to isn't allowed to?

Sometimes (often) I just can't understand some peoples views.

You should see the thread about the damage caused to the planes at RAF Brize Norton - some people seem to think we can just open up on full automatic against anyone we don’t like the look of on a military base.

 

[SexyGreyFox]

Sorry I didn't mean to imply I thought you were judging.

I didn't think you were, it was for everybody so they can't change my words

 

[Mr Badger]

I've never had anybody close to me with dementia, I know plenty of other friends who have experienced it.
Can I ask would you have given permission for your dad and mother in law to be euthanized because they didn't have capacity?
I was with my best mate and his daughter last night and both of them would have said yes to both his mum and dad.
Also my work colleague would have given permission for her dad at least 3 years before his death because of his suffering.

It shouldn't ever be about you giving permission for someone else to be euthanized.

In the same way that people can have DNR added to their medical records, there should be a way to record that if you end up in "X" medical state with a loss of mental capacity and no prospect of recovery, you want the legal process for assisted dying to be engaged. That can involve doctors, welfare checks etc. as appropriate to verify that there is no reason to believe your wishes no longer apply. But it should fundamentally be about the choices you make for yourself when you have the capacity to do so.

 

[wesimmo]

It shouldn't ever be about you giving permission for someone else to be euthanized.

In the same way that people can have DNR added to their medical records, there should be a way to record that if you end up in "X" medical state with a loss of mental capacity and no prospect of recovery, you want the legal process for assisted dying to be engaged. That can involve doctors, welfare checks etc. as appropriate to verify that there is no reason to believe your wishes no longer apply. But it should fundamentally be about the choices you make for yourself when you have the capacity to do so.

Totally agree in principle. Though I'm not sure how you'd be able to define where someone's line is pre decline.

It's such a weird thing that does so many varied things to people, very much a YMMV disease.

 

[tonys]

Totally agree in principle. Though I'm not sure how you'd be able to define where someone's line is pre decline.

It's such a weird thing that does so many varied things to people, very much a YMMV disease.

If a legal document was drawn up like you would a will, years before you decline, I would think that should cover it

 

[Mr Badger]

Totally agree in principle. Though I'm not sure how you'd be able to define where someone's line is pre decline.

It's such a weird thing that does so many varied things to people, very much a YMMV disease.

You would need to still have capacity when you made the choice, perhaps with some sort of living will prepared "just in case". It couldn't be done when you have already lost legal capacity to make decisions.

If they don't already exist, I would think some clear medical medical definitions could be laid down for the stages of dementia that a layman can understand. For example you might elect to opt out if you reach the stage where you are consistently unable to pass some simple standard tests, hold a basic conversation or remember your own name. Or perhaps if you develop a serious secondary condition e.g. cancer or a debilitating stroke on top of advanced dementia.