Euthanasia need to be considered in UK?

[SexyGreyFox]

It shouldn't ever be about you giving permission for someone else to be euthanized.

In the same way that people can have DNR added to their medical records, there should be a way to record that if you end up in "X" medical state with a loss of mental capacity and no prospect of recovery, you want the legal process for assisted dying to be engaged. That can involve doctors, welfare checks etc. as appropriate to verify that there is no reason to believe your wishes no longer apply. But it should fundamentally be about the choices you make for yourself when you have the capacity to do so.

However we have a problem with DNRs, for example during my mum's journey she had 4x DNRs, at each worse stage she had to sign a new one so what she signed two years previously may not have been her choice further on.
I see multiple DNRs in patients notes for the same reason and they are put right at the front.

It's a tricky subject.

 

[Mr Badger]

However we have a problem with DNRs, for example during my mum's journey she had 4x DNRs, at each worse stage she had to sign a new one so what she signed two years previously may not have been her choice further on.
I see multiple DNRs in patients notes for the same reason and they are put right at the front.

It's a tricky subject.

Nothing wrong with checking that people's wishes haven't changed. But presumably once someone loses the legal capacity to make such decisions, you stick with whatever they previously put on record? That has been my real world experience of how the NHS approach DNRs.

 

[SpellowHouse]

100%, we have a aging population and house shortage, the people retired today didnt put enough in to cover themselves and now the younger gen are having to pay for them, if we could offload a lot of them we wouldnt have this problem.

Er, yes they did put in enough. The problem is that the government spent it. So, personally, I'm for offloading the politicians instead. We should have accountability. And maybe we could get a few bob if we sold them to a glue factory. Is Soylent Green a thing yet?

 

[tonys]

However we have a problem with DNRs, for example during my mum's journey she had 4x DNRs, at each worse stage she had to sign a new one so what she signed two years previously may not have been her choice further on.
I see multiple DNRs in patients notes for the same reason and they are put right at the front.

It's a tricky subject.

According to the wife and son the DNR forms are not going to be used and that the new form is called ReSPECT. This will include the DNR aspect aswell as other criteria.

 

[Mr Badger]

Er, yes they did put in enough. The problem is that the government spent it. So, personally, I'm for offloading the politicians instead. We should have accountability. And maybe we could get a few bob if we sold them to a glue factory. Is Soylent Green a thing yet?

Are you talking about the state pension scheme specifically? If so then no, that isn't how it worked. There was never any pension fund set aside, just income from taxation and outgoing benefit payments. The problem with that is that people are living longer than originally expected and the shifting demographic results in more money being paid out, which in theory means an ever escalating amount of tax income is required. Hence the increases in state pension age. A woman in her 90s who has been receiving a state pension since she was 60 almost certainly did not pay in enough, even if the government had put all her contributions to one side for her.

Of course things could have been very different if the UK had taken a similar approach to Norway and set up a sovereign wealth fund. But we thought it was better for that money to be used to fund bonuses and dividends for the oil companies and to bribe the electorate with tax cuts.

 

[Hagar]

We never were in the Norwegian model with its tiny population and our relatively big welfare budget. There is no comparison.

However if people did get off their butt and off sickness benefits we may have a better outcome.

 

[jaybee]

Those people talking about watching parents go through dementia. I've got this all to come. Would appreciate any advice on it. It's looking like lewy body dementia in its very early stages.

 

[Mr Badger]

Those people talking about watching parents go through dementia. I've got this all to come. Would appreciate any advice on it. It's looking like lewy body dementia in its very early stages.

First step would probably be to ask your GP to refer you for any locally available support.

Couple of things I have learned:

1) Dementia varies from person to person and also goes in stages. One person might start wanting cuddles whereas another might become inexplicably frustrated and lash out. Changing their medication can help, but sometimes you just have to roll with a difficult phase and see whether things calm down again.

2) If you are caring for someone with dementia and there are problems, then it's you that needs to try and change because they are probably no longer capable of doing so.

3) It isn't all bad. You do have to develop a lot of patience though.

4) Even the nice care homes are no substitute for being cared for one to one in your own home. I've spoken to plenty of carers that have worked in care homes and they all say they would never want to be a resident. But I can see how for many families this is the way forward, as trying to care for a relative at home just gets too much for them. Someone I know is currently in a very difficult situation as her children are still school age and her husband has early onset dementia and (amongst other challenging behaviours) has become violent. So he's now in a secure unit and it seems unlikely that he will be coming home again.

 

[SpellowHouse]

Are you talking about the state pension scheme specifically? If so then no, that isn't how it worked. There was never any pension fund set aside, just income from taxation and outgoing benefit payments.

I know, and that's what I mean. It's not the peoples fault that the government didn't save the money. Anyone else, with half a brain, wouldn't have spent it all, they would have saved it for when the people retired. You can't go blaming the people because the government are idiots.
I mean, businessmen have been crucified for stealing from pension funds, yet the government didn't even bother having a fund, they just wasted the money. They should be held accountable.

 

[Hagar]

I know, and that's what I mean. It's not the peoples fault that the government didn't save the money. Anyone else, with half a brain, wouldn't have spent it all, they would have saved it for when the people retired. You can't go blaming the people because the government are idiots.
I mean, businessmen have been crucified for stealing from pension funds, yet the government didn't even bother having a fund, they just wasted the money. They should be held accountable.

From when and for how long should they be accountable? The UK pension system has always been paid directly from current receipts ever since. It's inception. The only changes have been for pension age and eligibility. Blaming your favourite bugbear politician such as Thatcher does not help because every government has had the option to change it and none have. However this is off topic to the thread subject.

 

[PlacidCasual]

Rather amusingly a Catholic Liberal Democat MP has been refused Communion by his local priest until he asks for Confession because he voted for the Assisted Death as a Service Bill. Apparently he's being bitching about the fact Catholocism has rules and he broke them and the Catholic Church behaved acording to those rules. What a plonker.

 

[Hagar]

Rather amusingly a Catholic Liberal Democat MP has been refused Communion by his local priest until he asks for Confession because he voted for the Assisted Death as a Service Bill. Apparently he's being bitching about the fact Catholocism has rules and he broke them and the Catholic Church behaved acording to those rules. What a plonker.

It is also why we had the reformation to resist being overly controlled by Rome (and allowing Henry VIII his wicked ways).

The said MP could also choose another priest but church and state should normally not sup from the same cup.

 

[Mr Badger]

I know, and that's what I mean. It's not the peoples fault that the government didn't save the money. Anyone else, with half a brain, wouldn't have spent it all, they would have saved it for when the people retired. You can't go blaming the people because the government are idiots.
I mean, businessmen have been crucified for stealing from pension funds, yet the government didn't even bother having a fund, they just wasted the money. They should be held accountable.

Not wishing to derail the thread, but as already pointed out people overall still didn't really pay in enough to fund the state pension. You can blame the government for setting the contribution level, but life expectancy (and thus the amount of pension paid out) was assumed to be lower than it has turned out to be.

Although a link is made between NI contributions and qualifying for the state pension, of course to the government it's all just tax income. Also, unlike a private pension scheme where you can set up a new company and a new pension scheme starting from scratch, the government has to take account of existing arrangements and issues. Back in (say) 1948 it probably wouldn't have gone down well if the government had cancelled all pension payments for old people and said we are starting again and you get nothing until you have made sufficient contributions to the new state scheme. And if course there are the people who (for whatever reason) do not earn enough to pay sufficient NI contributions. The state can't just leave them to starve.

I'm not claiming that the government has done a great job with managing the state pension. But I do question the narrative of some elderly people (who have now been retired for decades) that they personally paid in more than enough to cover the cost of their own state pension.

 

[Richard - London]

Er, yes they did put in enough.

No, they didnt.

 

[Mr Jack]

Rather amusingly a Catholic Liberal Democat MP has been refused Communion by his local priest until he asks for Confession because he voted for the Assisted Death as a Service Bill. Apparently he's being bitching about the fact Catholocism has rules and he broke them and the Catholic Church behaved acording to those rules. What a plonker.

More reading on this. It seems that his objection is more that the Priest chose to publicly announce from the pulpit during a service (at which Coghlan and his family weren't present) that he would be excommunicated and, to be fair, that seems like dick behaviour on the part of the Priest even if he is justified in withdrawing communion. On the one hand, the Priest did write to him to warn him beforehand, but on the other the Vatican has warned Priests against excommunicating politicians over their votes on other matters (e.g. abortion rights in the UK) and stated "The concern in the Vatican is not to use access to the Eucharist as a political weapon" so it seems reasonable for him to object to the Priest's actions in general even apart from the way he chose to reveal them.

 

[Penfold101]

Rather amusingly a Catholic Liberal Democat MP has been refused Communion by his local priest until he asks for Confession because he voted for the Assisted Death as a Service Bill. Apparently he's being bitching about the fact Catholocism has rules and he broke them and the Catholic Church behaved acording to those rules. What a plonker.

Meh - just go and find a version of the branch of the religion that already aligns with what you believe.

That’s what everyone else does…

 

[Blackjack Davy]

Couple of things I have learned:

1) Dementia varies from person to person and also goes in stages. One person might start wanting cuddles whereas another might become inexplicably frustrated and lash out. Changing their medication can help, but sometimes you just have to roll with a difficult phase and see whether things calm down again.

4) Even the nice care homes are no substitute for being cared for one to one in your own home. I've spoken to plenty of carers that have worked in care homes and they all say they would never want to be a resident. But I can see how for many families this is the way forward, as trying to care for a relative at home just gets too much for them. Someone I know is currently in a very difficult situation as her children are still school age and her husband has early onset dementia and (amongst other challenging behaviours) has become violent. So he's now in a secure unit and it seems unlikely that he will be coming home again.

Theres different types of dementia the worst is of course alzheimers and thats what everyone thinks of when they think dementia but its not the only one mum has vascular dementia which basically means she's completely compus mentus but has the memory of a goldfish and can't remember a thing for more than about two minutes. She has a very good care home I mean I'd rate it outstanding but it took a lot of looking around its also a tough decision to make I knew I couldn't look after her you have to be honest with yourself as much as anything else the guilt is terrible but ultimately its the best for her as shes quite happy their the staff are very nice and she's always been sociable although there are days where she wishes she wasn't stuck there but she can't look after herself anymore she can't be trusted to do the everyday things like cook a meal or go shopping or well anything really she needs looking after and thats that.

 

[Mr Badger]

Theres different types of dementia the worst is of course alzheimers and thats what everyone thinks of when they think dementia but its not the only one mum has vascular dementia which basically means she's completely compus mentus but has the memory of a goldfish and can't remember a thing for more than about two minutes. She has a very good care home I mean I'd rate it outstanding but it took a lot of looking around its also a tough decision to make I knew I couldn't look after her you have to be honest with yourself as much as anything else the guilt is terrible but ultimately its the best for her as shes quite happy their the staff are very nice and she's always been sociable although there are days where she wishes she wasn't stuck there but she can't look after herself anymore she can't be trusted to do the everyday things like cook a meal or go shopping or well anything really she needs looking after and thats that.

I'm not saying it's the right course of action in your case, but there are other options such as getting a live in carer.

 

[200sols]

Theres different types of dementia the worst is of course alzheimers and thats what everyone thinks of when they think dementia but its not the only one mum has vascular dementia which basically means she's completely compus mentus but has the memory of a goldfish and can't remember a thing for more than about two minutes. She has a very good care home I mean I'd rate it outstanding but it took a lot of looking around its also a tough decision to make I knew I couldn't look after her you have to be honest with yourself as much as anything else the guilt is terrible but ultimately its the best for her as shes quite happy their the staff are very nice and she's always been sociable although there are days where she wishes she wasn't stuck there but she can't look after herself anymore she can't be trusted to do the everyday things like cook a meal or go shopping or well anything really she needs looking after and thats that.

That depends on the stage of vascular dementia. Thats the type my grandad had, I can assure you he was not compus mentus in the last year of his life. He basically sat in a chair for the last year crapping himself. He had no idea what was going on and it was honestly like a living hell, basically a vegetable at that stage and literally no point in living. It honestly worries me a lot thinking that is the end my parents will face.

 

[Jelly4mybelly]

Indeed. It seems the only option you have with dementia is to kill yourself off early when you still have the capacity to do so. Otherwise you have to ride it through to the end, potentially spending years locked away as little more than a vegetable, with no dignity and most likely being charged a fortune for your care. These are not good, humane choices.

Its a very difficult one. On the face of it dementia falls outside of the 'terminally ill' and 'less than 6 months to live' conditions. But it's clear for anybody who has witnessed it that the sufferers can have no quality of life for the last x number of years.

If I end up with dementia I want to be subjected to weekly tests to determine when the end comes. A number of extremely simple questions about myself and close family. If I get zero correct answers on any given week then it's curtains.