Junior Doctors Strikes

[Minstadave]

It boils down to the UK not being able to afford the healthcare it needs, let alone what it wants. The NHS is broken, the staff cant endlessly shoulder the burden forever. In the run up to this we were being told to expect pay cuts, to reduce work despite huge demand, that staff leaving can't be replaced.

I have mixed feelings about the strikes overall. I respect the Residents standing up for themselves better than we did in my time.

 

[tamzzy]

bloody lazy junior doctors wanting a week off again
nevermind i'm around...after all, my chinese name is ka ching and i must live up to it and not disappoint my ancestors

 

[Richie]

Outside of this they should be looking to restore pay in line with average wage growth, not RPI. Even that would be a fairly substantial pay rise.

Out of interest, what would be the pay rise (in percentage terms) to give them Pay Restoration using Avg Wage Growth instead of the RPI (where they are demanding 29%)

 

[Mr Jack]

Out of interest, what would be the pay rise (in percentage terms) to give them Pay Restoration using Avg Wage Growth instead of the RPI (where they are demanding 29%)

Depends on what you're tagging it to (obviously the decline in doctor and other public sector wages impacts the average, so it feeds into itself) but you can see how badly they compare not just to the rest of the public sector but particularly to the private sector here:

That's using CPIH rather than RPI, which is a better measure of inflation, so probably the doctors should be asking for CPIH wage restoration rather than RPI.

 

[PlacidCasual]

The NHS's own fgures show that productivity has dropped by something like 8% since 2019 despite a double digits real terms increase in spending. The Junior Doctors have a legitimate claim that they have lost out in real terms since 2008 but they are being unreasonable in their demands and it was leaked just after last years 22% raise theat they would immediately strike this year. They are not acknowledging the fiscal situation, a more moderate appraoach would be CPI + X% for so many years to make up the gap gradually. If they want 22% this year they need to take a hike. The whole public sector needs a shake up civil service productivity is in the crapper.

 

[Mr Jack]

If they want 22% this year they need to take a hike.

That's not what they're demanding.

 

[Goodie]

Thankfully, they've chosen to strike when I already have annual leave booked. So that's nice.

Side note, how do you find the atmosphere of our place atm? I’m finding it to be descending to new lows of toxicity, absolutely vile place to be.

 

[Malevolence]

Side note, how do you find the atmosphere of our place atm? I’m finding it to be descending to new lows of toxicity, absolutely vile place to be.

Yeah, have noticed a slight unpleasant undercurrent of recent. But I'm mainly in the ED these days and it's not as noticeable in here.

 

[Minstadave]

Side note, how do you find the atmosphere of our place atm? I’m finding it to be descending to new lows of toxicity, absolutely vile place to be.

Its a total clown show at my place. All we get daily is asks about cutting costs, cutting staffing, doing less, "what can you manage without?" but at the same time hiring endless office midwives that overreach and cause chaos.

 

[chrcoluk]

Its a total clown show at my place. All we get daily is asks about cutting costs, cutting staffing, doing less, "what can you manage without?" but at the same time hiring endless office midwives that overreach.

Sounds like no change then from the last decade or so. We need HCP's to speak out publically, as the reality is different to what minister's preach.

 

[Minstadave]

Sounds like no change then from the last decade or so.

Not drastic but the sidelining of doctors is ever increasing. Challenge them on their ridiculous behaviours and you get labelled a bully, it's pretty toxic, one colleague has left and several others aren't far off.

Partly why I respect the Residents taking action, we've been doing "Be Kind" and a flattened hierachy for too long and it's resulted in less pay, less pension, less SPA, fewer support staff, more unpaid work, more acting down, empty rotas.

 

[mark2410]

google says

The average salary for a doctor in the UK varies significantly based on experience, specialty, and whether they are in training or a consultant. Junior doctors in training can expect a starting salary between £32,398 and £63,152, while consultants can earn from £99,532 to £131,964. General practitioners (GPs) can earn between £68,975 and £104,085, while specialty doctors earn from £52,530 to £82,400.

so please show me a job when youre a new start, a junior, starting at the bottom rung where you get paid well?

they go on stike becauase they can hold the gov to ransom and they have a spineless labour gov which will cave and give them what they want

and im not saying doctors dont deserve to be well paid, but so do many many many others

 

[Begbie]

google says

The average salary for a doctor in the UK varies significantly based on experience, specialty, and whether they are in training or a consultant. Junior doctors in training can expect a starting salary between £32,398 and £63,152, while consultants can earn from £99,532 to £131,964. General practitioners (GPs) can earn between £68,975 and £104,085, while specialty doctors earn from £52,530 to £82,400.

so please show me a job when youre a new start, a junior, starting at the bottom rung where you get paid well?

they go on stike becauase they can hold the gov to ransom and they have a spineless labour gov which will cave and give them what they want

and im not saying doctors dont deserve to be well paid, but so do many many many others

Many many others also have numerous opportunities to work in private fields and aren't held ransom by the government on their wage going up by at least cpi.

But it seems a fs1 was paid £22k~ in 2010,

and now £37k~. So it looks like the wage has increased over cpi?

Whilst the military has received a paycut when we account for cpi/inflation.

 

[Bald-Eagle22]

I'm sure if you run the same numbers for law enforcement, military and other government type departments they would all show a similar figure.

Sorry to say this is what happens when you don't negotiate concessions as they should have during the first pay dispute. It's absolutely sickening to see them doing this again given most of them have the potential to earn 6 figure salaries and a massive 21% defined contribution pension scheme - one that most of us could only dream about .

Scumbags .

 

[tom_nieto]

I could perhaps understand some of the sentiments that are expressed here if the UK ran a proper, well structured residency programme. That would indeed be short term pain for long term gain. Sadly that isn’t the case and training can run into decades. The whole “you knew what you signed up for” argument is just not valid given how different the NHS was 20 years ago, and how much in relative terms the top earners were making. I think many would not have signed up for it. It’s very difficult to recommend it as a career and even less so if financial barriers exist.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Sorry to say this is what happens when you don't negotiate concessions as they should have during the first pay dispute. It's absolutely sickening to see them doing this again given most of them have the potential to earn 6 figure salaries and a massive 21% defined contribution pension scheme - one that most of us could only dream about .

Scumbags .

so every year they should give up another part of their terms and conditions in return for a annual pay rise?

Other than a better pension on paper, there are no perks to working in the public sector. It’s not like you get get private health care as part of your package like you can with other professional jobs (lawyers, accountants etc).

I’ve posted this before, the 21% is massively misleading. The employer (NHS in this case) isn’t contributing 21% towards a current employees pension pot.

The 21% is the cost of paying EXISTING NHS pension benefits to people who retired years ago on proper final salary pensions which they could claim at 60 regardless of whether they retired or not at 60 and state pension age was 65.

These people paid about half the % employee contribution towards these than current employees.

Existing resident doctors do not get a final salary pensions, it’s based on career average salary and they can’t claim it until state pension age what ever that is at the time they retire, currently 68, might be 70, it might never come.

Or to put it another way, existing doctors are literally paying for the ‘gold plated’ pensions of long retired doctors who get far better pension benefits than they could ever hope to yet.

Edit: spelling.

 

[Hagar]

The 21% is the cost of paying EXISTING NHS pension benefits to people who retired years ago on proper final salary pensions which they could claim at 60 regardless of whether they retired or not at 60 and state pension age was 65.


Edit: spelling.

so what is the employer contribution to a resident doctors pension pot?

It seems a convoluted system to say there is no pot just like the NI/Tax state pension and what is paid supports current pensioners.

Mine was 6% through my working life.

Both sides seem to be using statistics to support only their position and I don't believe RPI restitution can reasonably be claimed by anyone.

 

[Tram]

It boils down to the UK not being able to afford the healthcare it needs, let alone what it wants. The NHS is broken, the staff cant endlessly shoulder the burden forever. In the run up to this we were being told to expect pay cuts, to reduce work despite huge demand, that staff leaving can't be replaced.

I have mixed feelings about the strikes overall. I respect the Residents standing up for themselves better than we did in my time.

The NHS will never change, it will continue to suck money, it does matter how much you throw at it, if you dont Structural change the foundations, it will eventually fail
GDP per capita (PPP) The UK is getting poorer, and will continue to get poorer, countries like Poland and Spain will have higher GDP per capita (PPP) than the Uk in 10 -20 years. People should move to these countries to take advantage of this growth.

 

[Minstadave]

so what is the employer contribution to a resident doctors pension pot?

It seems a convoluted system to say there is no pot just like the NI/Tax state pension and what is paid supports current pensioners.

Mine was 6% through my working life.

Both sides seem to be using statistics to support only their position and I don't believe RPI restitution can reasonably be claimed by anyone.

In a DB pension there is no pot that determines the benefit to you at the end. You and your employer contribute to the scheme and at the end of it you get a pension based on your career average pay.

The employer contribution isn't yours, it's not a perk of the job.

 

[Hagar]

But apparently there is no final salary scheme to current doctors so there must be an NHS contribution to their pension pot.?