Junior Doctors Strikes

[swillsy]

But again, where is the evidence that the sick pay causes additional sickness.

Correlation doesn’t equal causation.

One thing a lot of people miss is good employers in the private sector where equivalent level professionals work also offer similar benefits. The public sector also employs considerably more disabled people as a proportion of its workforce than the private sector, this is a good thing.

It’s almost like the public sector sets the standards that the private sector should be striving to achieve.

@hager you can wear all the PPE in the world but it doesn’t fully stop the contraction of infection. In reality it’s not practical for staff to wear full PPE 24/7, as we saw in Covid it massively reduces productivity and frankly just isn’t very pleasant.

Not to mention plenty of patients are contagious before they are symptomatic.

Quick google - https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/resource/all-is-not-well-sickness-absence-in-the-nhs-in-england NHS rate - 5.6%
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentan.../sicknessabsenceinthelabourmarket/2023and2024 - 2022 - labour market rate was 2.6%

It's twice as high and this isn't new information so not sure why you are acting like it is? Everyone knows that private v public sickness has always been different.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Quick google - https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/resource/all-is-not-well-sickness-absence-in-the-nhs-in-england NHS rate - 5.6%
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentan.../sicknessabsenceinthelabourmarket/2023and2024 - 2022 - labour market rate was 2.6%

It's twice as high and this isn't new information so not sure why you are acting like it is? Everyone knows that private v public sickness has always been different.

Again this isn’t evidence that better sick pay terms leads to higher sickness rates.

Correlation isn’t causation.

You ignore that good private sector employers also offer similar terms, the environment NHS employees operate in is likely to lead to higher sickness rates and public sector employers hire far more people with disabilities than the private sector.

So I’ll say it again, where is the evidence that their sick pay terms leads to higher sickness rates.

 

[swillsy]

Again this isn’t evidence that better sick pay terms leads to higher sickness rates.

Correlation isn’t causation.

You ignore that good private sector employers also offer similar terms, the environment NHS employees operate in is likely to lead to higher sickness rates and public sector employers hire far more people with disabilities than the private sector.

So I’ll say it again, where is the evidence that their sick pay terms leads to higher sickness rates.

I'm not sure what to say to you - the end result is what it is - you are trying to conflate the argument with good/bad emplyoers etc. It's a lot less to do with sick pay and more to do with job security in my opinion.... but again that's just based on going outside the house and talking to people who work in both public and private sectors.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

I'm not sure what to say to you - the end result is what it is - you are trying to conflate the argument with good/bad emplyoers etc. It's a lot less to do with sick pay and more to do with job security in my opinion.... but again that's just based on going outside the house and talking to people who work in both public and private sectors.

The end result isn’t ‘what it is’ correlation does not equal causation.

The fact the two sickness rates are different (no one is disputing this) does not equate to evidence that the sick pay is the cause for the difference. That is a logical fallacy and your anecdotal opinion isn’t evidence.

You don’t know what to say because you don’t have any evidence which perfectly articulates my point.

I’m not even saying you are wrong, I’m saying you have no objective evidence for the basis of your opinion.

The question then becomes how can you form such a firm opinion on something you have no evidence of?

 

[swillsy]

The end result isn’t ‘what it is’ correlation does not equal causation.

The fact the two sickness rates are different (no one is disputing this) does not equate to evidence that the sick pay is the cause for the difference. That is a logical fallacy and your anecdotal opinion isn’t evidence.

You don’t know what to say because you don’t have any evidence which perfectly articulates my point.

I’m not even saying you are wrong, I’m saying you have no objective evidence for the basis of your opinion.

The question then becomes how can you form such a firm opinion on something you have no evidence of?

If you read my post I said it's probably not related to sick pay differences - which vary across both sectors and more to do with job security in public sector v private. I'm not sure what to say to you because you seem very angry about everything

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Not really, the above is in a firm tone though, I agree.

However, when someone states an opinion as a fact and then can’t product the evidence to back up said opinion, and just restates the opinion as a fact, it just creates a rather circular conversation.

 

[chrcoluk]

As an NHS worker from band 4 to band 8a for over 26 years, long term sick is incredibly rare and the vast majority of those that are on it have genuine mental and or physical conditions. The sick leave in my department is less than the trust average. You get the very odd abuser of the system but it is super rare and they tend to be weeded out by the system if you are a manager who stick to process.

It’s the usual daily heil reading nonsense that NHS workers regularly abuse sick leave.

I have sympathy for the junior doctors pay erosion, but it has happened to all of us in the NHS. So them asking for another 28% pay rise is basically saying “screw you” to the rest of us, because the only way it could be funded is to stop pay increases for other NHS workers. I know it will take at least 10 years to get us parity, but it has to be realistic and affordable.

Catering to the sort of people who think common decency is wrong, but instead people should be compelled to work through health problems as a duty for their country.