What is wrong with people - Harjinder Singh, killer HGV driver.

[Vonhelmet]

Also don't forget this is the US - they don't fanny around with sentences like the UK does, as they have the prison systems to bang people up.

It’s one of the least effective prison systems in terms of recidivism. Brilliant.

They have a huge prison industrial complex because slavery is explicitly permitted as punishment for a criminal conviction. The prohibition on slavery in the 13th amendment carves out an exception for prisoners. It suits them to have a huge number of prisoners who can work as slaves. It’s not the healthiest argument for a prison system.

 

[Scort]

It’s one of the least effective prison systems in terms of recidivism. Brilliant.

They have a huge prison industrial complex because slavery is explicitly permitted as punishment for a criminal conviction. The prohibition on slavery in the 13th amendment carves out an exception for prisoners. It suits them to have a huge number of prisoners who can work as slaves. It’s not the healthiest argument for a prison system.

Who said anything about the effectiveness?

 

[fez]

It’s one of the least effective prison systems in terms of recidivism. Brilliant.

They have a huge prison industrial complex because slavery is explicitly permitted as punishment for a criminal conviction. The prohibition on slavery in the 13th amendment carves out an exception for prisoners. It suits them to have a huge number of prisoners who can work as slaves. It’s not the healthiest argument for a prison system.

Yeah, the American privatised prison system is a mess. The issue with the idea of rehabilitation is that in my opinion it implies a level of hope that most people can be rehabilitated and as a society we have let far too many people live horrible lives outside of the norms of society without consequence that I don't think thats really possible. Its a mess. Its like sending someone to rehab and then once they are done we send them back to the crack house and say "stay clean!".

I believe plenty of people can be rehabilitated but I don't think we are anywhere near a place as a society where thats currently possible.

And on the subject of this actual thread, dangerous driving is downplayed to ridiculous proportions in this country and you cannot do that and then turn around and give sentences that actually represent the seriousness of consequences. You can't have people who have dozens of points on their licenses not being banned because they couldn't work and then punish them properly when their speeding kills.

I still find it utterly bizarre the complete disconnect between the conditions and driving required to pass the test and the fact that the vast vast majority of people would fail a test a dozen times over every time they get in the car and drive. Everything about driving in this country certainly says "don't worry, its OK, these things happen, no one really expects you to drive safely or to the law"

 

[Vonhelmet]

Who said anything about the effectiveness?

I’d like to think government spending was effective. I think that’s something we could aspire to.

 

[bigmike20vt]

even tho it is horrific and deserves prison time, personally i think more time for what was ultimately an accident than what some get for deliberate premeditated murder seems odd and sentences should be consistent as well.... in America what do white native (native... not the right word thinking about it!!!) Americans who kill someone in an RTA tend to get? if its 45 years then fair enough i guess..... but in the UK you may not even get that amount if you went out and shot someone. There must be other RTAs with HGVs where the driver was 100% at fault and should not have been driving... i dont think people usually get close to that for a RTA even if with no licence or drunk etc. I have seen some pretty brazen drink driving in America and it is almost just accepted. Any time they get in a car they could easily become a family annihilator

That said and a bit of a segue I guess... is it just me who thinks (for arguments sake) 45 years potentially out in 20 is also stupid.... same with concurrent sentences, what is the point in serving multiple sentences at the same time (other than using it as a hook to get people who (may or may not have....) committed a crime just to admit to them to clear someone's work load?. ie if i am in a gang and i am going down for murder..... if i am offered a deal to admit to others to be served concurrently of course i will admit to them if other members of my gang did it, esp if it means they look after my family.... its no skin off my nose!.

yes there should be the potential for leniency for clearly rehabilitated people who have behaved and proven they have turned their life around.......... and equally there should be potential for those who are clearly not remotely changed and will be a future danger to have a sentence extended.......

but a sentence should be close to what the judge expects them to serve, and then with maybe 10% wiggle room for good behaviour.... i would say give lower sentences which give inmates some light at the end of the tunnel but stick to them.

Note i am not condoning the crime.

 

[Chuk_Chuk]

The Independent video has barely 4 seconds of footage from the cab and for about half of that the video is paused to highlight the car in the image. Once you allow for thinking/reaction time that doesn’t leave him a lot of time to take evasive action in a borderline jack-knifing lorry, let alone mug for the camera as you seem to want him to do. In that remaining second he’s probably doing little more than thinking “Well, there’s nothing I can do here, that car is going to hit us.”

Why are you making up stories on what he was thinking? Especially when you've admitted to not seeing the full video.

His facial expression is one of Apathy. Even as he watched the car hitting him, there was no panic or urgency, he just looked apathetic . No signs of an adrenaline rush or emotional discomfort in the video after. Nothing from him. That is not normal behaviour.

Also people need to stop over exaggerating thinking and reaction time.


Edit: Video here. No blood or gore

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

 

[Scort]

Why are you making up stories on what he was thinking? Especially when you've admitted to not seeing the full video.

His facial expression is one of Apathy. Even as he watched the car hitting him, there was no panic or urgency, he just looked apathetic . No signs of an adrenaline rush or emotional discomfort in the video after. Nothing from him. That is not normal behaviour.

Also people need to stop over exaggerating thinking and reaction time.


Edit: Video here. No blood or gore

There's a 20 (ish) second video I saw, assuming it's the one from this link - the driver just casually carries out a U turn, and is indeed completely unperturbed by the chain of events - feels like a total disconnect from the reality of the situation; if anything the passenger seemed a bit more switched on to what happened.

Edit: just watched the clip in the OP, and not sure why they only show the last 2-3 seconds of the cab video, as you completely miss the driver pulling the U turn deliberately; it almost looks like he's lost control in this edit.

 

[Resident]

There isn't a popsicles chance he would see anything like that length of sentence over here. The average sentence for death by dangerous driving in 2020 was 4 years 7 months and that covers all the people that are driving at 80 in a 30 high as a kite. This would be treated on the very low end of serious over here as he just did something really stupid and we don't consider really stupid in a massive lump on metal as particularly serious here.

I will wholeheartedly agree that the average sentence length for D by DD are loathsome and unduly lenient however up until late in 2022 the maximum sentence was just 14 years before you add any of the sentencing discounts and mitigation factors.

The two cases you linked unfortunately occurred before the sentencing changes happened uplifting the 14 years to life imprisonment.

Somehow I doubt this thread would have been created if the driver was "Dave"

"Dave" is probably his cousin from "Microsoft Support".....

 

[Vonhelmet]

It’s amazing how everyone knows how someone should look during the course of a road accident.

Pro tip: if you’re ever in a road accident be sure to make all kinds of wacky faces just in case someone has a camera on you.

 

[Scort]

It’s amazing how everyone knows how someone should look during the course of a road accident.

Pro tip: if you’re ever in a road accident be sure to make all kinds of wacky faces just in case someone has a camera on you.

I'm pretty sure we're all human.... so it's not beyond the realm of possibility to expect at least some reaction

Assuming you're old enough to drive, have you never had a moment when you've puckered up or winced - I'm sure your facial expression would have been pretty telling

 

[Dr Jack]

It’s amazing how everyone knows how someone should look during the course of a road accident.

Not mention that the camera isn't recording what he's seeing. He may well have not realised the severity of the situation at that point.

 

[Chuk_Chuk]

It’s amazing how everyone knows how someone should look during the course of a road accident.

Pro tip: if you’re ever in a road accident be sure to make all kinds of wacky faces just in case someone has a camera on you.

Because everyone knows there are only two facial expressions human beings have, apathy or wacky. There is absolutely nothing in between. No Sir there isn’t.

Spoiler

Also if you watch enough car crash dashcam videos you very quickly learn the normal reactions people have.

 

[Vonhelmet]

I'm pretty sure we're all human.... so it's not beyond the realm of possibility to expect at least some reaction

Assuming you're old enough to drive, have you never had a moment when you've puckered up or winched - I'm sure your facial expression would have been pretty telling

I could be old enough to be your father, for all either of us know.

i have to admit I’ve never winched, though. I don’t even own a tow truck.

 

[Haggisman]

what was ultimately an accident

I think calling it an "accident" is stretching the definition somewhat. You don't just "fall behind the wheel" of a multi-ton vehicle when you clearly don't have the training or skills to do so, and "inadvertently" pull the steering wheel to the side to perform a u-turn when there is signage explicitly prohibiting it. While no, I'm sure he didn't set out to kill anyone, it seems like a pretty pre-meditated and conscious set of decisions to me.

As for the sentence - I don't know, maybe 45 years is too long? I do feel that we're far too lenient on dangerous driving in this country however - there's the old joke (probably paraphrasing here): "if you want to murder someone, just "accidentally" hit them with your car".

 

[hornetstinger]

Remember this lunatic

 

[fez]

I will wholeheartedly agree that the average sentence length for D by DD are loathsome and unduly lenient however up until late in 2022 the maximum sentence was just 14 years before you add any of the sentencing discounts and mitigation factors.

The two cases you linked unfortunately occurred before the sentencing changes happened uplifting the 14 years to life imprisonment.

Would that have changed anything though? They didn't hit the maximum available. I don't know that they wonk on a "percentage" ie. they gave 10 years out of 14 so under the new guidelines they would have given 71% of the new maximum. I thought it was more relevant when they were hitting the limits of the current guidelines and now they can sentence to longer terms. I may be completely wrong however.

 

[fez]

I think calling it an "accident" is stretching the definition somewhat. You don't just "fall behind the wheel" of a multi-ton vehicle when you clearly don't have the training or skills to do so, and "inadvertently" pull the steering wheel to the side to perform a u-turn when there is signage explicitly prohibiting it. While no, I'm sure he didn't set out to kill anyone, it seems like a pretty pre-meditated and conscious set of decisions to me.

As for the sentence - I don't know, maybe 45 years is too long? I do feel that we're far too lenient on dangerous driving in this country however - there's the old joke (probably paraphrasing here): "if you want to murder someone, just "accidentally" hit them with your car".

Unfortunately the definition of "accident" is everything up to admitting that you aimed at someone and tried to kill them. Closing your eyes as you fly through a junction? Nah, thats fine because you didn't intentionally mean to kill someone. Yes you had a very high likelihood of doing it through your actions but hey, whoopsie.

As someone who cycles it does my head in how blase we are about dangerous driving. Constant dangerous driving. I can begin to count the sheer number of dangerous actions people take around me when I'm on my bike. Not people putting my life in danger quite often but just really bad decision making that could result in a fatal collision. Overtakes where they are just gambling that no one is coming around the corner at the wrong time are so common that i'm almost more surprised when someone waits until its objectively safe.