EV general discussion

b0rn2sk8 said:
Yes a model Y.

Range is essentially determined by speed and the size of the front of the caravan and raw battery capacity. Weight and length doesn’t really make much difference. Wind also has a material impact as you are essentially towing a parachute.

I’ve got a standard 7ft6 wide caravan and if I’m on a long run, and tuck it in with the trucks at 56-60, it’s about 135 miles from 100% with a buffer (e.g. 145ish miles to zero).

Slower roads extends it out although stop start can drop it down as the caravans fiction brakes will come on when you slow down/stop.

Some cars with 100kwh batteries are doing 160-170 miles. Model Y only has 75 usable.

Most chargers mean unhitching, although the layouts on some mean you don’t or if they are not busy, you can just block them. For example, the expansion at Peterborough services just added 2 tow through bays, although I am sure they’ll be in use by numpties without a trailer when you want to use it because the spaces are bigger.

I just park the caravan next to the charger, I don’t mess around with parking in caravan parking or anything like that. It genuinely takes 2-3 mins to hitch up, it’s really not that big of a deal.

What I would say is the model Y doesn’t charge as quickly as other cars and as you do have to stop more often, I’d recommend the Kia/Hyundai over it. That’s also why I’m interested in the new iX3.

You can get compact caravans, Eriba is a popular one which has a pop top so it’s lower and narrower. Someone who has a 100kwh Fischer Ocean got about 190 miles towing one. For me, that’s good enough, I’d be more than satisfied with 170-180 miles range.
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Thanks that's really interesting to hear real world experience of them, i know for me anyway i'd need to stop myself by 130ish miles of range as that must be getting on for 3 hours of driving.

Yeah i've been looking and Tesla are lagging behind quite a bit with their charging curves nowadays compared to the competition so be worth getting something that can sustain a decent high KW speed up to 60-70% like most of the other newer stuff can.
 
sovietspybob said:
Thanks that's really interesting to hear real world experience of them, i know for me anyway i'd need to stop myself by 130ish miles of range as that must be getting on for 3 hours of driving.

Yeah i've been looking and Tesla are lagging behind quite a bit with their charging curves nowadays compared to the competition so be worth getting something that can sustain a decent high KW speed up to 60-70% like most of the other newer stuff can.
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Yes, defo agree. The new Y performance has a new battery which is supposed to be a lot better in this regard and should trickle down but they are behind in practice in this regard.

130miles is normally a good 3 hours+ in practice for to the lower speeds in real world traffic and bigger gaps needed to manoeuvre etc.

The tow hitch implementation isn’t the best either, it’s better on the Korean cars.

I also just added a quick ninja edit to the post above.

Edit: the main charging benefit of Tesla is the massively reduced price.
 
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Haggisman said:
Again, it comes down to the definition of "off street parking". If 25% of those are people living in flats/terraced houses with spaces which are remote from the property, then that's only 50% of the total.

While yes, in theory those parking spaces could have chargers installed, that's a big infrastructure project; it's not just a case of bolting a charger to a wall and running a couple of meters of cable to the electricity meter - it would require installing a dedicated power supply to somewhere there isn't one already, so digging up the road /car park etc. along with smart chargers to control who could use them and how much they'd pay etc.. All of that is of course possible, but it would come at a significant cost, and you'd need all of the residents/users of that parking area to agree to it and be willing to pay their share to actually make it worthwhile.

Similarly, with rented properties, you'd need landlords to agree to allow the tenant to have a charger installed. While it would be easy enough to enact legislation to force landlords to agree to this (similar to the recent Renters' Rights Bill) the argument then comes down to who pays for it? Is the tenant going to be happy to pay ~£1k to install a charger when they might only be there 6-12 months? Is the landlord going to be happy to pay ~£1k for a charger which they will see no benefit* to?

While these issues could be avoided with legislation on new developments (e.g. make it mandatory for all flats/shared parking areas to have at least 1 charging space per property), that doesn't solve the problem of the thousands (millions?) of existing "off street" parking spaces.

Even if technically speaking "the majority" of drivers would be able to switch without issue, if that majority is only just over half, then that leaves a significant "minority" of people for whom it would cause problems.



* arguably they would see a benefit since it would make their property more attractive, but the short term penny-pinching attitude of many landlords is unlikely to take that into account, especially when rental properties are already in high demand.
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Just to touch on the landlord point, i think it's pretty reasonable for the tenant to pay to have the charger fitted and it seems it's pretty common for them to disconnect them and take them with them to the next house. Also lots of people stay in rented houses for years and years so it would be easy to justify the cost then.

It's pretty much a win both ways as the tenant only needs to be maybe £2-300 installation in their new house as they already have a charger and the old landlord already has cabling in place if the new tenant wants one installing.

All it really needs is some legislation saying that if asked and it's reasonable a landlord can't refuse an installation by an accredited installer.
 
If I was a landlord I’d probably either supply it (there are grants available) or buy it off the tenant should they leave.

If not want the constant swapping of charge points because it would turn my wall into Swiss cheese.
 
b0rn2sk8 said:
Yes, defo agree. The new Y performance has a new battery which is supposed to be a lot better in this regard and should trickle down but they are behind in practice in this regard.

130miles is normally a good 3 hours+ in practice for to the lower speeds in real world traffic and bigger gaps needed to manoeuvre etc.

The tow hitch implementation isn’t the best either, it’s better on the Korean cars.

I also just added a quick ninja edit to the post above.

Edit: the main charging benefit of Tesla is the massively reduced price.
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Never really been into the whole caravan thing, but i do wonder how far my i5 would be able to get range wise with one stuck behind it, the most my towbar ever see's is my bike rack! :D
 
Haggisman said:
Again, it comes down to the definition of "off street parking".
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A Lloyds Bank study in 2022 estimated about 56% of UK homes can directly support EV charging. If accurate and with each household having on average of 1.2 - 1.5 cars, that means about 67% - 80% of car owners have easy access to home charging.

I agree it would be closer to the lower end but I would state with confidence that the majority of car owners in the UK do indeed have the ability to switch to EVs with relative ease.

My point really is that the typical retort from many that they couldn’t go EV because “reasons” are generally inaccurate. Range, reliability, battery concerns, public charging, home charging, fire risk (to name a few of the more common ones) are all totally unfounded for the majority of car owners.

The Lloyd’s study for reference.
 
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ICDP said:
No, it really isn’t complicated at all. Fringe cases aren’t the norm, that’s why they are called fringe cases.

Studies and statistics show that as of this very moment, the majority* of drivers in the UK have zero private parking, or fringe use cases that would make switching from ICE to an EV “unworkable”.

* We know majority does not mean all, but it does mean “the most”. You finding a fringe case and repeating the phrase “it’s complicated” does not invalidate that fact.
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This mindset would work perfectly if the goal was for the majority of cars sold to be EV but that isn't the goal. The goal is for 100% of cars to be sold to be EV.

The inevitable counter of "well those people can just buy used cars as they will be around for 25 years" just adds to the borderline class divide between those that can run an EV cheaply and those who it would end up costing more to do so.

Also the "just buy used" doesn't account for those on Motability or those with company cars.

EVs are fantastic (says the guy who doesn't have one...) but if they are to be the only option that option needs to be workable for everyone, not just most.

The obvious elephant in the room is that it is a big if at this stage. Will we really see all cars being HEV or PHEV by 2030? Will they be phased out entirely just 5 years later?

A Lloyds Bank study in 2022 estimated about 56% of UK homes can directly support EV charging. If accurate and with each household having on average of 1.2 - 1.5 cars, that means about 67% - 80% of car owners have easy access to home charging.
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I'm pretty sure it doesn't mean that at all :confused:
 
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lordrobs said:
This mindset would work perfectly if the goal was for the majority of cars sold to be EV but that isn't the goal. The goal is for 100% of cars to be sold to be EV.

The inevitable counter of "well those people can just buy used cars as they will be around for 25 years" just adds to the borderline class divide between those that can run an EV cheaply and those who it would end up costing more to do so.

Also the "just buy used" doesn't account for those on Motability or those with company cars.

EVs are fantastic (says the guy who doesn't have one...) but if they are to be the only option that option needs to be workable for everyone, not just most.

The obvious elephant in the room is that it is a big if at this stage. Will we really see all cars being HEV or PHEV by 2030? Will they be phased out entirely just 5 years later?



I'm pretty sure it doesn't mean that at all :confused:
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I agree but that doesn’t mean it’s not a goal worth pursuing. I am not purely EV for the environment but I do acknowledge they are better than ICE. So even if it ends up 60% switch to EV by 2030, that’s still a good thing.
 
kefkef said:
81.2kwh usable is the figure i've been given.
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So probably 145 miles or so.

I get anything between 475 and 550 wh/mile when towing and most people report basically the same regardless of car.

The trailer is the great equaliser when it comes to aero dynamics and destroys any aero advantage you may get from having a slippery car so it basically comes down to battery capacity and any few % difference in drive train efficiency.
 
I should add, the number above is based on a standard 7ft6 single axel caravan.

If you tow an ‘extra wide’ (8ft) caravan you’ll get less due to the added aerodynamic load.

A twin axel will also add a bit of additional rolling resistance and may take away a bit more regen as it has 4 drum brakes instead of 2.

Tow a compact caravan like an Eriba and you’ll get materially more.
 
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sovietspybob said:
Just to touch on the landlord point, i think it's pretty reasonable for the tenant to pay to have the charger fitted and it seems it's pretty common for them to disconnect them and take them with them to the next house. Also lots of people stay in rented houses for years and years so it would be easy to justify the cost then.

It's pretty much a win both ways as the tenant only needs to be maybe £2-300 installation in their new house as they already have a charger and the old landlord already has cabling in place if the new tenant wants one installing.

All it really needs is some legislation saying that if asked and it's reasonable a landlord can't refuse an installation by an accredited installer.
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We paid for ours to be installed on our rented house and we're basically already at break even after a couple of months. If you do enough miles to justify a proper charge point over granny charging then it should be cost neutral pretty quickly especially with the £350 grant you can claim.

Not sure how worthwhile it will be taking it with us when we leave though by the time we pay for someone to come and disconnect it and terminate everything properly as the charger is generally not the expensive bit of getting one installed initially.
 
The issue with the grant is it’s a once and done. The next tenant can’t claim it again.

The landlord should really buy it off you for a couple of hundred and call it quits.
 
b0rn2sk8 said:
The issue with the grant is it’s a once and done. The next tenant can’t claim it again.

The landlord should really buy it off you for a couple of hundred and call it quits.
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I think it is probably be easier for the landlord to install it and claim any grant saving. my wife's flat is above a shop and her designated parking space is a ways from the property so unfortunately it isn't a. easy solution for us otherwise I would look into doing it for her flat .
I see how it's not cut and dry however. if the tennant has no interest in having an EV then they won't see it as value added. as we go forward however having EV charging will become more and more attractive for future tenants... I know it would be a hell of a sweetener for me if I was looking.
 
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It's not only flats that have this sort of issue. Our house has a garage with designated parking space in front of it but that's part of a separate block so there's no safe way for us to run power from our house to it. Short of installing one of those weird posts that can dangle a charger over the pavement, I'm pretty much resigned to the fact we won't have an electric car while living here. When we bought in 2008, it wasn't really something we thought about, electric cars were like 0.1% of the market back then with sales in the low hundreds per year for the whole country.
 
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b0rn2sk8 said:
The issue with the grant is it’s a once and done. The next tenant can’t claim it again.

The landlord should really buy it off you for a couple of hundred and call it quits.
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From a quick look it's tied to the person not the property.

you’ve already claimed the grant (or its predecessors, the Electric Vehicle Homecharge Scheme (EVHS) and the Domestic Recharge Scheme)
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you want to replace a chargepoint, even if the existing one is incompatible with your new car
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Depending on how this is interpreted could be the only one that would tie it to the property.
you want to move an existing chargepoint to a new property.
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