Blame on both sides

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CREATIVE!11 said:
Yes.

Because antifa has been blanket attacking trump supports / anyone who disagrees for a long time. This case it was some neo nazis but i'm also willing to bet there were just some normal people there too. Violence in that form is NOT ok. Attacking people for supporting their president lol?

They're derranged morons who need to be shut down too.
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I'm not sure that all the protesters were antifa, but I have not way of knowing.

But as to the wider problem, and in reference to my point above - if you have groups like the neo nazis, KKK, white supremacists who are allowed to get permits to preach killing of blacks/jews, - is it not a totally predictable and natural response, that you're going to end up with very big problems in your society..... where groups like antifa and god knows whoever else, will appear in the wake of it all.
 
VincentHanna said:
Like someone else already asked

How many of the counter protesters were members of 'Antifa'?
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Which nobody can accurately answer, but every single Trump rally or any form or free speech rally of any kind they've been there in force pretty much every time and attacked people. Just like me asking you, how many neo nazis do you think were there and how many randoms who could just support Trump (this protest was posted about a couple places saying go defend free speech that kind of thing).

How do we know it wasn't mostly right wingers and 20-30 neo nazis photographed/video'd carrying nazi flags?

Exactly. Take that nonsense elsewhere. Unless you want to go and start handing our surveys asking people "Are you here because you are actually racist and literally love Hitler?"
 
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Charlottesville is a college town. 83% of its population voted Democrat at the last election. Here's a photo of some local students surrounded by white nationalists.

Comdeming violence on both sides is the cowardly options. It's an easy out that doesn't address the root causes. A peaceful tyranny is not true peace.
 
I am pro curbs on immigration, I remain a supporter of the travel ban, I can see the reasons behind both outside of the rhetoric of racism.

Its never ok to NOT slam Nazi propaganda as unacceptable. Its impact on recent and modern history has scarred the world, and it should never be allowed to show its face again in any guise.

Trump's remarks or lack of in some cases confirm what we already know, middle America has a huge racist underbelly that is growing. There is a revolution underway and Trump knows which side of his bread is buttered. I expect this to only get worse.
 
Also:

Charlottesville Police Chief Al S. Thomas Jr. said the rallygoers went back on a plan that would have kept them separated from the counterprotesters. Instead of coming in at one entrance, he said, they came in from all sides. Headlong into the counterprotesters.
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Chris Cantrell—the main guy interviewed by Vice—gave detailed instructions to his white supremacist buddies ahead of the rally. These included:

* don't attend unless you're fit for combat
* join the rally even if we don't have a permit for it
* bring firearms (Cantrell himself brought a bunch of firearms )
* conceal your firearms (Cantrell brought unconcealable firearms)
* obey the law

So we have to operate under the assumption that we will be operating without a permit until such a time comes that a competent authority says otherwise.

...For this event, I encourage those with the legal authority, to carry a concealed firearm. Open carry will draw more unnecessary attention to us, so if you do not have a license to carry, please secure your firearms elsewhere and let us worry about defense.

...Virginia is a state with relatively accommodating gun and self defense laws, with wide reciprocity of carry permits, and no prohibition against open carry for those not prohibited from possessing a firearm.

Many of us planned on being armed, not only for general purpose and display, but to deal with the very real threat of violent communist agitators who have proven dangerous throughout the country.

Civil disobedience and guns do not go well together, however. No matter what anyone else says, if you never take another word of advice from me again, heed this warning: If you are coming armed, obey the law, and the orders of law enforcement, no matter what.

You cannot tell the cops to go to hell with a gun on your hip. It puts all of us, and our cause at risk. If you are considering disobeying the authorities, you must leave your firearms secured elsewhere.[/b]

...If we end up in a position where we are opposed by communists and cops alike, and we are disarmed, the potential for violence is very real. It is my advice that women, children, and men who are not fit for combat do not attend the main event at Lee Park, unless we get our permit reinstated, and even then I have serious concerns.
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(Source).

Clearly, much of this advice was ignored by his white supremacist comrades.
 
Screeeech said:
I'm not sure that all the protesters were antifa, but I have not way of knowing.

But as to the wider problem, and in reference to my point above - if you have groups like the neo nazis, KKK, white supremacists who are allowed to get permits to preach killing of blacks/jews, - is it not a totally predictable and natural response, that you're going to end up with very big problems in your society..... where groups like antifa and god knows whoever else, will appear in the wake of it all.
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This is one of the issues at the moment. People are, whether deliberately or accidentally, misrepresnting facts. That is also leading to further antagonmism on both sides. I would be very surprised if the town of Charlottesville, who's mayor is Jewish and went to the left leaning university of Berkley, would grant a permit to preach the killing of blacks and jews. In fact that didn't happen at all. The permit was granted for a rally to oppose the removal of a historical statue. Granted what happened afterwards resulted in violence and disgusting acts and much of that is likely to be premeditated. But what you say above is completely inacurate.
 
Screeeech said:
Apparently, both sides are to blame - ie; the alt-left/liberal protesters who attacked neo nazis/kkk/white supremacists, are just as bad, and carry just as much blame.
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surely they carry all of the blame?

I'm a bit concerned - I'm pretty sure if we had nazi flags being paraded through our streets - I wouldn't feel particularly bad, in any moral way about meeting them head on, violently if necessary.

Or - should the rights of neo nazis/racists/kkk/etc be respected just as much as liberals?
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how liberal of you...
 
The left actually employ agiitators to try to make Trump and I'm guessing other right wing rallies look violent, here is some undercover videos from the recent election exposing activist groups aimed at making the right look bad.

Skip to 4:43 if you don't have the attention span to watch in full:

When you have groups with Nazi types and you actively try to provoke a reaction it's fairly obvious you'll get one, what I don't get is why police allow militant left wing groups to follow them around agitating and don't do more to separate them. It's the same in the UK with UAF which is basically our version of Antifa.
 
Hades said:
But what you say above is completely inacurate.
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Doesn't look that inaccurate when you read what Evangelion wrote above, and his source.

No facts are being misrepresented at all, with or without a permit - they went there to preach the killing of blacks, armed to the teeth, to claim that people are misrepresenting the facts is being pretty obtuse.
 
I believe Trump is right to point out that leftist agitators are at least partially responsible for what happened.

Whatever one thinks of the Neo Nazi ideology, the fact is they registered their peaceful protest with the local authorities. The counter protesters did not. They showed up to the event - some of them armed - to cause trouble. That is what they got.
 
As much of an asshat as Trump is, I applaud calling out the violent contingent within the antifa lot. It seems you can damage property and indulge in violent conduct as long as you're signed up to UAF, HNH or whatever sanctimonious pet group is flavor of the month these days.

It's amazing how terrified people are when it comes to calling out these "tolerant" and "liberal" groups. Any criticism is instantly deflected in such a way as to make you a racist/Nazi/whatever-phobe.

Must say I'm enjoying the media convulsions.
 
The truth lies somewhere in the middle and until we can have an adult debate about the things Antifa don't want to talk about then you will see more and more extremism on both sides.

We need far more push back to the centre where people can speak openly in every day life about topics that concern them. If you try and nanny people or tiptoe around topics you get far more sympathy with the alt and extreme right.

Trump was an idiot for not condemning this act. I agree the left has a violence problem too but he should have condemned directly what happened and then later talked about the bigger picture is necessary.

Multiculturalism and globalisation are big transformatory powers. Yet nobody ever talks about the impacts, other than financial and theoretical. There has been a real failure of politicians and the media to explain the journey we are on and to offer the people a voice in shaping that journey. This failure has lead to the extremism we are beginning to see.
 
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Schlong&Stable said:
I believe Trump is right to point out that leftist agitators are at least partially responsible for what happened.

Whatever one thinks of the Neo Nazi ideology, the fact is they registered their peaceful protest with the local authorities. The counter protesters did not. They showed up to the event - some of them armed - to cause trouble. That is what they got.
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How can you reasonably expect peace, when you have a group of people hijacking freedom of speech, using it to openly call for the slaughter of black people and jews?

Just expect people to stand back and say "we disagree" ?

rofl.
 
Screeeech said:
It seems as though you're sort of skirting around the edges of what's actually happening here.

If you have a society, where it's apparently legitimate to obtain a permit - that allows people to openly call for the mass killing of black people and jews - as the KKK and nazis were doing, according to their so called '1st amendment rights' under the guise of freedom of speech, what sort of response do you expect from people? For them to stand by obediently, as the calls for death and killing of blacks and jews ring out? for not a single rock to be thrown or punch to be thrown?

I also don't think this is freedom of speech at all, it's freedom of speech being hijacked and used to legally incite racist killing, which might be allowed under 1st amendment rights, but that doesn't mean people should stand by and accept it.
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That is because I'm talking in a wider context than the events in Virgina.
 
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