Blame on both sides

[Felon]

Quite a bizarre press conference from Donald Trump, on the back of the Charlottesville unrest.

Apparently, both sides are to blame - ie; the alt-left/liberal protesters who attacked neo nazis/kkk/white supremacists, are just as bad, and carry just as much blame.

I'm a bit concerned - I'm pretty sure if we had nazi flags being paraded through our streets - I wouldn't feel particularly bad, in any moral way about meeting them head on, violently if necessary.

What are people's thoughts on this? is there truly blame on both sides - if so why?

Or - should the rights of neo nazis/racists/kkk/etc be respected just as much as liberals?

 

[Felon]

2 wrongs don't make a right. They are entitled to free speech. So yeah, both sides hold some blame.

Is it really 2 wrongs though?

Is it really true, that the liberal left are as bad as neo nazis and the actual real KKK? I mean, I'm struggling to see them both being equally bad, and thus carrying equal amounts of blame,

 

[Felon]

I have this internal conflict with it all and I don't know exactly how to get around it,

One side of me thinks nazis/kkk/scum - people who openly want to kill/remove all ethnic minorities, should be beaten back at any cost- violently if necessary, because their views and actions are so totally abhorrent that their mere existence cannot merely be tolerated in any way.

On the other side, I have this peaceful element which thinks - people should be allowed to voice any opinions they wish, no matter how crazy - violently opposing them is just as bad, no matter how totally awful they are.

Honestly, I have no idea where I stand with it - I struggle with both sides.

 

[Felon]

It would be interesting if we could have an anonymous poll - maybe the mods could add it?

Options could be;

- Both sides were equally to blame,
- Alt left were mostly to blame
- Alt right were mostly to blame,

I'm genuinely interested to know the spread of opinion on this,

 

[Felon]

Exactly.

World War II - There was blame on both sides. The allies killed people too!

That's basically what his argument boils down to.

Yeah, there's a sort of weird undertone to some posts, which fits with this logic.

 

[Felon]

And saying people should get a kicking because they hold certain views isn't hate speech?
That's precisely what we have in this thread.

If a guy in a KKK costume, with a microphone, stands outside in public shouting how we should be killing blacks in record numbers, and he gets a kicking for it, is the person doing the kicking equally bad?

 

[Felon]

Worse. One has abhorrent views, the other actions. I know which is easier to ignore.

But could it not be the case, that some views are so abhorrent and toxic to society at large, that to stand by and ignore them without taking action, could in the long run lead to far bigger problems?

People may claim, that the "alt-left" are equally as bad for being violent, but I'm not sure this is true - because they're not the ones openly calling out for the slaughter of black people.

Reminds me of that Einstein quote; the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it.

 

[Felon]

Many of the more extreme alt-left activists are only too happy to oppress anyone with a different opinion to themselves and incriminate reason often while hiding behind the moral high ground or using it to try and shut down differing views, etc. while trying to impose arbitrary restrictions or redefine what is normal in pursuit of "social justice" which just as much applies to your post.

It seems as though you're sort of skirting around the edges of what's actually happening here.

If you have a society, where it's apparently legitimate to obtain a permit - that allows people to openly call for the mass killing of black people and jews - as the KKK and nazis were doing, according to their so called '1st amendment rights' under the guise of freedom of speech, what sort of response do you expect from people? For them to stand by obediently, as the calls for death and killing of blacks and jews ring out? for not a single rock to be thrown or punch to be thrown?

I also don't think this is freedom of speech at all, it's freedom of speech being hijacked and used to legally incite racist killing, which might be allowed under 1st amendment rights, but that doesn't mean people should stand by and accept it.

 

[Felon]

Here's part of a report from the local Jewish community:

Someone a few pages back linked a video showing some of the nazis in what appeared to be their hotel rooms, openly talking to a VICE reporter, whilst sorting out assault rifles, pistols, vests, knifes...

totally insane.

 

[Felon]

Indeed. I think people confuse "freedom of speech" with "freedom to speak without any consequence".

And also, I forgot to add - what sort of general environment will it create, if you allow this sort of thing to go on, for these groups to exist for years and decades, for their views to be aired. You're ultimately going to end up with a very serious and violent problem, where if the government won't stop them - ordinary people will step in and try, as they probably should in my opinion. Not because the "ordinary people" or "alt-left" or whatever alias you assign them, are bloodthirsty maniacs who are just as bad, but because they think it's totally wrong for these nazi/kkk groups to legally voice their calls for mass racial killing, under the guise of 1st amendment rights/freedom of speech.

It seems as though freedom of speech at any cost, ultimately ends up with "freedom to preach murder racism and hatred" which is going to end in tears.

 

[Felon]

Yes.

Because antifa has been blanket attacking trump supports / anyone who disagrees for a long time. This case it was some neo nazis but i'm also willing to bet there were just some normal people there too. Violence in that form is NOT ok. Attacking people for supporting their president lol?

They're derranged morons who need to be shut down too.

I'm not sure that all the protesters were antifa, but I have not way of knowing.

But as to the wider problem, and in reference to my point above - if you have groups like the neo nazis, KKK, white supremacists who are allowed to get permits to preach killing of blacks/jews, - is it not a totally predictable and natural response, that you're going to end up with very big problems in your society..... where groups like antifa and god knows whoever else, will appear in the wake of it all.

 

[Felon]

But what you say above is completely inacurate.

Doesn't look that inaccurate when you read what Evangelion wrote above, and his source.

No facts are being misrepresented at all, with or without a permit - they went there to preach the killing of blacks, armed to the teeth, to claim that people are misrepresenting the facts is being pretty obtuse.

 

[Felon]

I believe Trump is right to point out that leftist agitators are at least partially responsible for what happened.

Whatever one thinks of the Neo Nazi ideology, the fact is they registered their peaceful protest with the local authorities. The counter protesters did not. They showed up to the event - some of them armed - to cause trouble. That is what they got.

How can you reasonably expect peace, when you have a group of people hijacking freedom of speech, using it to openly call for the slaughter of black people and jews?

Just expect people to stand back and say "we disagree" ?

rofl.

 

[Felon]

Yes they were. It's completely untrue that a permit was granted for them to preach the killing of jews and blacks. That may be what happened on the rally. But the permit was not approved on that basis. If I could find the wording of the permit request I'd link to it but unfortunately my google fu is weak on that one. But I would be stunned if the permit was approved on the basis of what you claim. What you said was inacurate, regardless of what actually happened on the rally.

What exactly were the neo nazi, KKK and white supremacists there for then? what was the general message they wanted to give?

Please enlighten me.

 

[Felon]

Is that what you think they said, or can you show they actually said it at this protest?

What does the KKK normally think/say about black people?

 

[Felon]

That's not the point I was picking you up on.

It is the point, answer the question.

What did the neo nazis, KKK and white supremacists go there for, what were their intentions, what was their purpose?

Stop hiding behind semantics.

Also, if you grant a permit, to neo nazis, KKK and white supremacists, to protest (for any reason, be it a statue, to preach, whatever) - what on earth do you think they're going to do? Protest about womens rights?

 

[Felon]

Are you claiming this protest was organised by the KKK? If so, you only further prove your ignorance of what happened.

Rather that comment on a situation you do not understand, why not go and read up on, take in some views from all sides involved and thencomment on the story?

All sides involved rofl,

Yeah I'll just take some sound advice from this guy;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P54sP0Nlngg#t=19m10s

 

[Felon]

I'm struggling with how people can claim there's a moral equivalence with standing up to neo nazis and racists, it doesn't sit well with me that people standing up to the sorts of things that were happening in Charlottesville, even with force - are automatically branded as being 100% just as bad, and just as much as a problem.

It seems unbalanced and morally distorted.

 

[Felon]

If they break the law the it's the job of the Police to stand up to them, the courts to sentence them, and the penal system to deal with them.

If they aren't breaking the law then the only ethical recourse is to peacefully protest them.

The last thing we want to do is to vindicate a group of thugs who use violence under the banner of "Anti-Fa". Or to glorify them. Angry mobs don't always achieve just results!

But, do you not think that if people stand and do nothing, and allow freedom of speech laws to be legally (1st amendment right) hijacked by nazis in order to incite racial destruction and ethnic cleansing - that it could lead to far far worse problems?

 

[Felon]

I am just not so sure this attitude of yours, given your posting history, would be quite as "dignified" if ISIS were protesting outside your house.

I'm glad someone else has pointed this out, I was reluctant to, but it really does stick out like a sore thumb with some previous posters, and their posting history in other threads.....