When are you going fully electric?

[Journey]

they need to be upfront on the % of total that are company bev purchases , if it's still 2/3 of total then government needs to adjust incentives - levelling up;
for example they are starting advertising for care-workers, but like other professions, if they cannot afford London congestion charge say, you create unecessary economic problems.

Who needs to be upfront?

It is just the registration data for October, given the fact that regardless of who is buying them almost any manufacturer can sell every BEV they make, price irrelevant it seems, why does fleet vs private matter?

 

[Uncle_Gravy]

Own this now for 2 weeks and enjoying every moment of it - N-Connecta e+ 62kwh

 

[Greebo]

Who needs to be upfront?

It is just the registration data for October, given the fact that regardless of who is buying them almost any manufacturer can sell every BEV they make, price irrelevant it seems, why does fleet vs private matter?

Because BEV have massive tax breaks as Company vehicles. If you have a company car due for replacement this last year you would be mad not to have gone BEV or hybrid. Some people have even gone back from owning their own car to having a company BEV car again.

But if take up of the general public in buying private cars is still really low then obviously they are still too expensive and needs further subsidies to get Joe public on board, not reducing as the Govt keeps doing.

 

[lordrobs]

Because BEV have massive tax breaks as Company vehicles. If you have a company car due for replacement this last year you would be mad not to have gone BEV or hybrid. Some people have even gone back from owning their own car to having a company BEV car again.

But if take up of the general public in buying private cars is still really low then obviously they are still too expensive and needs further subsidies to get Joe public on board, not reducing as the Govt keeps doing.

Exactly. If I was given the option I'd have had an EV company car at 1% BIK and lived with the fact my work trips would become a logistical nightmare and more costly to me personally when charging publicly.

As soon as the BIK gets near parity with ICE there would be no chance until destination charging gets a hell of a lot better.

PHEV is the sweet spot for me but my company car budget would need to increase considerably to get myself in one.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

By the time BIK gets to parity with ICE, you’ll not be able to buy an ICE. 1% a year basically gets us there.

If anything by I’d expect BIK rates on ICE to continue to creep up as we get closer to the 2030 deadline to price them off the roads and never actually getting to parity.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

Yeah i do wonder what planet people are on to think the gap would close...

 

[b0rn2sk8]

We are really not that far away from price parity over the magic 3 year lease/PCP (total cost including fuel) and BEV is already cheaper over the total lifetime costs.

I think as soon as the magic 3 years costs get to parity, they’ll start ramping up more punitive taxes on new ICE and removing the last EV incentives.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

EU7 is insane for ICE aswell in terms of the aftertreatment costs, and continue performance through life.

 

[Greebo]

Yeah i do wonder what planet people are on to think the gap would close...

Balancing the books on missing tax revenue.

In 2018/19 HMRC collected £1.59bn in BIK (an increase of £40m) and £660m in NICs (£30m more), despite HMRC reporting 50,000 fewer cars (at 890,000).

They also collected £27.99bn from fuel duty.

So thats £30bn which is going to reduce year on year. Unless you think the government are going to replace that £30bn by taxing people more, I would expect BIK to continue at 1% increase each year for the short term but then to increase in bigger jumps until 2030 and they will aim for parity.

How they propose to replace the £28bn from fuel duty is a trickier problem. Perhaps a "surcharge" on chargers kw once there are a lot more chargers and a lot more BEV in the country.

ANybody who thinks BEVs wont get taxed like ICE cars have are kidding themselves. I know the gOvt have always claimed that duty was there for environmental reasons but its always just being a money raising tax IMO.

Same with BIK. They may well have tagged it onto co2 from the car but how you can have somebody being supplied a £130k Taycan which might be costing the company £1300 per month on lease and there be zero benefit in kind to the employee shows its nothing more than a subsidy to get people swapping over from ICE cars now.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

I don’t think anyone is saying they won’t get taxed like ICE cars, I think the points we are trying to make is that they will never reach parity because the taxes on ICE will also increase to push people to electric as we get to the 2030/5 deadlines. Therefore there will never be parity in real time because ICE in 2029 will be higher than electric in 2029 even is electric in 2029 is a similar levels to ICE in 2021.

 

[Greebo]

I don’t think anyone is saying they won’t get taxed like ICE cars, I think the points we are trying to make is that they will never reach parity because the taxes on ICE will also increase to push people to electric as we get to the 2030/5 deadlines. Therefore there will never be parity in real time because ICE in 2029 will be higher than electric in 2029 even is electric in 2029 is a similar levels to ICE in 2021.

Got ya! Yeah i agree on that point, they will tax ICE cars to the hilt. I can see the upper band being nearer 50% by then rather than the 37% it is now.

But i do think the gap will close. There will be some bigger jumps than 1% on BEV in future years.

ICE cars are already taxed high enough that nobody should really be better off having a company car to owning one now.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

Balancing the books on missing tax revenue.

In 2018/19 HMRC collected £1.59bn in BIK (an increase of £40m) and £660m in NICs (£30m more), despite HMRC reporting 50,000 fewer cars (at 890,000).

They also collected £27.99bn from fuel duty.

So thats £30bn which is going to reduce year on year. Unless you think the government are going to replace that £30bn by taxing people more, I would expect BIK to continue at 1% increase each year for the short term but then to increase in bigger jumps until 2030 and they will aim for parity.

How they propose to replace the £28bn from fuel duty is a trickier problem. Perhaps a "surcharge" on chargers kw once there are a lot more chargers and a lot more BEV in the country.

ANybody who thinks BEVs wont get taxed like ICE cars have are kidding themselves. I know the gOvt have always claimed that duty was there for environmental reasons but its always just being a money raising tax IMO.

Same with BIK. They may well have tagged it onto co2 from the car but how you can have somebody being supplied a £130k Taycan which might be costing the company £1300 per month on lease and there be zero benefit in kind to the employee shows its nothing more than a subsidy to get people swapping over from ICE cars now.

You just tax ICE more at the same time and also maybe reduce oil industry subsidies on petroleum making to save money out, agree maybe rapid chargers more, we have seen VAT on public charging increased to 20% rather than 5% domestic energy. Then invest in Gigfactories and renewables to export abroad and recover revenue that way rather than just getting tax from bloke driving around selling stuff.

There's no such thing as zero benefit in kind on cars now. BIK is also applied to healthcare. Of the £1.59 bn i don't know how much is company cars? Sounds like the bigger whole is from the fuel duty regardless of BIK, I recognise the BIK does influence people to drive EV and hence reduce fuel demand = less fuel duty.

The solution isn't to fully stop the incentive to EV though - a 5% figure really would be more appropriate to start with, particularly based on the higher P11d values and indeed cost saving from EV use.

 

[Greebo]

You just tax ICE more at the same time and also maybe reduce oil industry subsidies on petroleum making to save money out, agree maybe rapid chargers more, we have seen VAT on public charging increased to 20% rather than 5% domestic energy. Then invest in Gigfactories and renewables to export abroad and recover revenue that way rather than just getting tax from bloke driving around selling stuff.

There's no such thing as zero benefit in kind on cars now. BIK is also applied to healthcare. Of the £1.59 bn i don't know how much is company cars? Sounds like the bigger whole is from the fuel duty regardless of BIK, I recognise the BIK does influence people to drive EV and hence reduce fuel demand = less fuel duty.

The solution isn't to fully stop the incentive to EV though - a 5% figure really would be more appropriate to start with, particularly based on the higher P11d values and indeed cost saving from EV use.

The whole £1.59bn was just company car BIK. HMRC breaks BIK revenue down for you and there is the £660m of NI on cars as well which will go.

And no the solution isnt to stop the incentive but at 1% increase in BIK per annum per year only gets BIK to 10% by 2030 on BEV. Way way less than the revenue currently gathered so would perhaps drop BIK revenue by half or even more. I cant see that being accepted and paid for elsewhere out of the budget. I honestly expect bigger BIK increases leading up to 2030. Having a £120k taycan and paying £520 BIK tax per annum just seems wrong even if it is to encourage people to move to BEV. Perhaps there will be bigger "road tax" increases for over £40k cars including BEVs?

But like you say, the drop in fuel revenue is going to be the biggest drop in the long run albeit slower as each new BEV doesnt mean an ICE car is taken off the road.

 

[mjt]

16p or so at home, free at any public chargers in my local authority area. So generally I pay nothing as I charge once a week at the golf course (public 22kw chargers x 2) or jump on the rapid charger once a week whilst my daughter is at one of her swimming training sessions. (6 x 7kw chargers, 2 x 22kw chargers and a 50kw CCS/DC/AC rapid all in the same car park at the pool - all still free)

Sweet deal if you can charge for free!

 

[Jonnycoupe]

If someone’s paying £130k for a Taycan there contribution to UK plc is probably higher than the average UK person. Let alone those who take from the system. So let’s not get too carried away. That’s more about first year write down value of 100% than BIK anyway.

 

[jpaul]

And no the solution isnt to stop the incentive but at 1% increase in BIK per annum per year only gets BIK to 10% by 2030 on BEV. Way way less than the revenue currently gathered so would perhaps drop BIK revenue by half or even more. I cant see that being accepted and paid for elsewhere out of the budget. I honestly expect bigger BIK increases leading up to 2030. Having a £120k taycan and paying £520 BIK tax per annum just seems wrong even if it is to encourage people to move to BEV. Perhaps there will be bigger "road tax" increases for over £40k cars including BEVs?

looks like in germany company bik is 0.5% per month, so 6% per year; so maybe £100p/m for higher rater tax payer.
(if I interpret https://www.eafo.eu/countries/germany/1734/incentives correctly)
and the 64K question is whether bev purchase premium for private individuals there, is less than uk, relative to ICE.

I can't see any lease deals on id3's, say, just people complaining about Q3 2022 delivery slots


edit: about torque steer for fwd ev's like kona
Why Doesn't The Honda Civic Type R Have Torque Steer?

 

[Greebo]

If someone’s paying £130k for a Taycan there contribution to UK plc is probably higher than the average UK person. Let alone those who take from the system. So let’s not get too carried away. That’s more about first year write down value of 100% than BIK anyway.

For the company yes, for the employee its all about BIK. But lets ignore taycans for a second. There is still a massive benefit in kind to having a £50-£60k polestar 2 or tesla and only pay £220 per annum BIK as a higher rate tax payer. That wont remain like that. Its only there as a temporary encouragement.

I think you would be a fool not to imagine post 2030 that wont rise to closer like £4k per annum in tax.

looks like in germany company bik is 0.5% per month, so 6% per year; so maybe £100p/m for higher rater tax payer.
(if I interpret https://www.eafo.eu/countries/germany/1734/incentives correctly)
and the 64K question is whether bev purchase premium for private individuals there, is less than uk, relative to ICE.

I can't see any lease deals on id3's, say, just people complaining about Q3 2022 delivery slots


edit: about torque steer for fwd ev's like kona
Why Doesn't The Honda Civic Type R Have Torque Steer?

Germany seems to be going the other way and keep reducing. Its only 0.25% per month BIK for cars up to 60,000 euros and they are giving 9000 euros subsidy off the new price as well.

 

[Bear]

edit: about torque steer for fwd ev's like kona
Why Doesn't The Honda Civic Type R Have Torque Steer?

The CTR probably has a LSD

 

[Warranty_V0id]

Just pick up my new company car, went for an ID3 this time.

 

[thewanted]

How long did you have to wait for it @Warranty_V0id ? The current lead times for ID.3s is ridiculous (40+ weeks).