EV general discussion

ICDP · 9 Dec 2021 at 17:03

I learned a while back to stop using EVDB for anything regarding real life expectations. Current feedback on recent range test for ID.4 and Q4 cars is they are getitng 3.0 - 3.3 mi/Kwh which is not bad for Dec. Even the Q4 35 with 52kW net battery is getting 170 miles under normal mixed driving and that is with mid Dec winter weather.

In the worst of it when we get to Jan then 2.5 - 2.8 on a Q4 40 (or 50) would equate to 190 - 220 miles. So you would need to be doing constant 90mph on a motorway to get as low as 150 miles of range out of a Q4 40.

b0rn2sk8 · 9 Dec 2021 at 17:05

I agree but it’s not -10 here either which is what their winter figure is based on, in fact it’s 14C warmer which is not insignificant at all.

How do their numbers match up with say people in Norway or Finland?

Greebo · 9 Dec 2021 at 17:07

b0rn2sk8 said:
‘Mildly moist’ .

*snigger

ICDP · 9 Dec 2021 at 18:08

b0rn2sk8 said:
I agree but it’s not -10 here either which is what their winter figure is based on, in fact it’s 14C warmer which is not insignificant at all.

How do their numbers match up with say people in Norway or Finland?

I have seen ID.4 motorway tests in winter at 1.5c in wet weather. Result was ~2.8 mile/kWh which would be over 200 miles for the 77kW versions. We would not get much worse weather here in the UK, so even worst case scenario 190 winter miles is realistic if all you were doing was driving at 70mph on a motorway.

OllyM · 9 Dec 2021 at 18:27

I was about to post that I drove my ID.4 from Quebec to New Jersey in late October and averaged 2.7 miles/kWh with temperatures below freezing at the start of the trip and almost constant rain. Travel assist was set at 70-75 most of the way.

ICDP · 9 Dec 2021 at 18:42

Thanks for taking the time to post this and it is really useful to see real world tests.

Demon · 9 Dec 2021 at 18:51

OllyM said:
I was about to post that I drove my ID.4 from Quebec to New Jersey in late October and averaged 2.7 miles/kWh with temperatures below freezing at the start of the trip and almost constant rain. Travel assist was set at 70-75 most of the way.

About right, I did 2 x 150 mile trips to Plymouth and back the other week at 3.5C in an ID.3 and got 3.2 m/kWh on the way down, and 2.9m.kw/h on the way back @ 70mph with travel assist on mist if the time, with a car very much full and air on set to 21.. that was effectively 185m of range one way and 170 miles the other..

WJA96 · 10 Dec 2021 at 06:43

ICDP said:
I have seen ID.4 motorway tests in winter at 1.5c in wet weather. Result was ~2.8 mile/kWh which would be over 200 miles for the 77kW versions. We would not get much worse weather here in the UK, so even worst case scenario 190 winter miles is realistic if all you were doing was driving at 70mph on a motorway.

I don't disagree with you. To get that 216 miles theoretical you would have to literally start out with 100% and run it to zero. It's not surprising that people get in their cars (charged to 80% because that's what the internet says to do) and then they run them down to 10% (because that's about as low as most people want to go) and they're shocked because they've only got 150 miles of driving. So if you left home with 100% you could do 195 miles at 2.8miles per kW consumed. but if you then rapid charged to 80% you'd only het 150 miles on the next leg of the journey. So the honest real-world range of an iD4, as most people would use it, at 70mph is really 150 miles as posted originally. It's not surprising that people are often disappointed by the range of their cars.

And that's the same for all cars. I did note though that the new Tesla's have their charge management without a daily maximum limit indicated on the batteries. That might suggest they are chargeable every day to 100%.

Jonnycoupe · 10 Dec 2021 at 07:53

Yeah LFP is better fully charged really so don’t have that charge warning.

SDK^ · 10 Dec 2021 at 08:38

WJA96 said:
I don't disagree with you. To get that 216 miles theoretical you would have to literally start out with 100% and run it to zero. It's not surprising that people get in their cars (charged to 80% because that's what the internet says to do) and then they run them down to 10% (because that's about as low as most people want to go) and they're shocked because they've only got 150 miles of driving. So if you left home with 100% you could do 195 miles at 2.8miles per kW consumed. but if you then rapid charged to 80% you'd only het 150 miles on the next leg of the journey. So the honest real-world range of an iD4, as most people would use it, at 70mph is really 150 miles as posted originally. It's not surprising that people are often disappointed by the range of their cars.

And that's the same for all cars. I did note though that the new Tesla's have their charge management without a daily maximum limit indicated on the batteries. That might suggest they are chargeable every day to 100%.

Agree with this - Range should be shown as 10-80% as well as 0-100%.
Most people realise range is less at 10-80% but the un-informed person buying an EV and relying on the dealer sales persons advice are just told the WLTP range. Hence the Daily Mail headlines when Mr or Mrs Taycan owner leaves home at 50% and doesn't get 280 miles.

Greebo · 10 Dec 2021 at 08:42

Which is why, for myself at least, I want a car which will do at least 200 miles accounting for cold,weather, heating, wipers, 10-80% charge time etc. There are plenty that fit this brief, the Q4 isnt one of them though.

[TW]Fox · 10 Dec 2021 at 08:54

SDK^ said:
Nice
The Q4 eTron Sportback is in my top 3 EV list.

Why? The regular Q4 looks like a better car in every way - more practical and useful. I've never really understood the point in the Sportback. It's a practical car deliberately made less useful for.... presumably styling reasons but come on, it's not a TT is it? Same applies to the X4 versus the X3 etc. Strange cars.

The regular Q4 though, looks like a great all round package. So id stick it on your list instead of the Sportback

Jonnycoupe · 10 Dec 2021 at 08:55

Theres not a lot of cars actually a lot that will do that to be fair, and really need to.

I mean the day i even think about using my wipers has an effect on energy use... well, it wont be when i have an EV thats for sure.

I mean you could probably drag up references to a little FWD shopping car whilst everyone get over emotional over the efficiency to larger cars whilst ignoring they are missing out on 4WD and 400bhp but thats a well trodden path best avoided

b0rn2sk8 · 10 Dec 2021 at 09:18

I’m not sure I’m following this, if you are about to set off on a long journey, why wouldn’t you charge the car to 100%?

I get the whole, ‘what if there is an emergency and I need to jump in the car and drive to the other end of the country at 5 minutes notice’, it’s a great hypothetical but it’s not exactly realistic of typical use. The reality is that the vast majority of journeys > 100 miles are planned > 2 hours in advance.

Surely the ‘correct’ assumption is 100% to 5-10%.

Jonnycoupe · 10 Dec 2021 at 09:26

Yes. Its all hypothosis from non EV drivers at the end of the day.

Greebo · 10 Dec 2021 at 09:41

Jonnycoupe said:
Yes. Its all hypothosis from non EV drivers at the end of the day.

b0rn2sk8 said:
I’m not sure I’m following this, if you are about to set off on a long journey, why wouldn’t you charge the car to 100%?

I get the whole, ‘what if there is an emergency and I need to jump in the car and drive to the other end of the country at 5 minutes notice’, it’s a great hypothetical but it’s not exactly realistic of typical use. The reality is that the vast majority of journeys > 100 miles are planned > 2 hours in advance.

Surely the ‘correct’ assumption is 100% to 5-10%.

So you are fine to charge to 100% every day then? Why do people keep mentioning 80% then?

SDK^ · 10 Dec 2021 at 09:44

[TW]Fox said:
Why? The regular Q4 looks like a better car in every way - more practical and useful. I've never really understood the point in the Sportback. It's a practical car deliberately made less useful for.... presumably styling reasons but come on, it's not a TT is it? Same applies to the X4 versus the X3 etc. Strange cars.

The regular Q4 though, looks like a great all round package. So id stick it on your list instead of the Sportback

Yep fair point.
The difference between the two is just the sloping rear, the Sportback comes with better Alloys as standard but costs £1.5k more. For just £350 the optional 21's on the standard look better than the wheels on the Sportback, but then larger wheels means a pretty big hit on range.

In terms of practicality - How many people load their boots up to the roof and/or carry 6ft+ people in the back?
I'm transporting bikes, so would need to drop the seats anyway regardless.

Minstadave · 10 Dec 2021 at 09:44

Greebo said:
So you are fine to charge to 100% every day then? Why do people keep mentioning 80% then?

It's extrapolated from the general advice regarding Lithium ion chemistry. Avoiding fully charging and discharging the cells can prolong battery life. There is a lot more to EV batteries though (battery management systems/balancing of cells/temperature control/hidden capacity etc.) so it's a little hard to extrapolate directly.

Jaguar recommend regularly to charging to 100% for the Ipace.

Tesla suggest topping up to 80% for daily use, and 100% only for long journeys.

https://www.tesla.com/en_NZ/support/home-charging-installation/faq

WJA96 · 10 Dec 2021 at 09:48

b0rn2sk8 said:
I’m not sure I’m following this, if you are about to set off on a long journey, why wouldn’t you charge the car to 100%?

I get the whole, ‘what if there is an emergency and I need to jump in the car and drive to the other end of the country at 5 minutes notice’, it’s a great hypothetical but it’s not exactly realistic of typical use. The reality is that the vast majority of journeys > 100 miles are planned > 2 hours in advance.

Surely the ‘correct’ assumption is 100% to 5-10%.

Only if you're doing a trip where you're going to charge to 100%. And charging over 80% on a rapid is actively discouraged because on most current cars it takes as long to charge from 80-100% as it does from 20-80%

I think it would be reasonable to quote the 0-100% figure and the 10-80% figure.

Jonnycoupe · 10 Dec 2021 at 10:00

Greebo said:
So you are fine to charge to 100% every day then? Why do people keep mentioning 80% then?

Im fine, but i have a boring 'legacy automaker' vehicle with more robust agreement between cell suppliers and manufacturers...

Because the Tesla HMI literally tells you to whilst you drove their car as unaware beta testers. Its become a public consumer point, also the rapids ettiquette also references 80%.

I only charge to 88% as ive mentioned before for daily stuff, only 100% before a long journey and every few week. Prefer having full regen and capacity to take charge if its convinient. Plus marginal benefit for calender aging by avoiding cells sat close 100% SoC