EV general discussion

[Minstadave]

The loss of regen at 100% has caught me out a couple of times now.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

In terms of practicality - How many people load their boots up to the roof and/or carry 6ft+ people in the back?
I'm transporting bikes, so would need to drop the seats anyway regardless.

6+ ft is a generous assumption. This might be an odd concept to grasp on a computer forum but more people have teenagers and big dogs than people who put bikes inside their car

 

[b0rn2sk8]

So you are fine to charge to 100% every day then? Why do people keep mentioning 80% then?

>150 miles a day, 5 days a week is north of 40k miles a year. That’s some mileage even for your ‘traveling sales person’.

It’s fine to charge to 100% and then use it the following day and always has been. People charge to 80% because they only do 30 miles a day and pinning the battery at a high state of charge constantly will cause it to degrade a bit faster than keeping it at 80 or below. On a 200 mile EV, driving it 30 miles is only going to use about 15%.

Only if you're doing a trip where you're going to charge to 100%. And charging over 80% on a rapid is actively discouraged because on most current cars it takes as long to charge from 80-100% as it does from 20-80%

I think it would be reasonable to quote the 0-100% figure and the 10-80% figure.

That’s fine but you would have already done a 100% to 5-10%, going back up to 80% again means a trip length of >300 miles on a 200mile EV. you would also only go back up to 80% if you needed the charge complete the trip or needed to have a further charge on top of that. Otherwise you’d just stick in what you need to get home in the day, why wait round for longer and pay more than was needed?

E.G. you have a 200 mile EV, you need to do 250 miles. You probably only need to be on a HPC for <10 mins to get you home.

In something like a Kona like you have you are probably talking >370 mile trips with a 100% to 10% back up to 80% and back to 10% again given how efficient the car is.

 

[SDK^]

6+ ft is a generous assumption. This might be an odd concept to grasp on a computer forum but more people have teenagers and big dogs than people who put bikes inside their car

I'm more concerned about my circumstances than anyone else's Teenager with big dogs scenarios
I have neither so the Sportback is as practical for me, as the standard car.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

You asked the question

>150 miles a day, 5 days a week is north of 40k miles a year. That’s some mileage even for your ‘traveling sales person’



That’s fine but you would have already done a 100% to 5-10%, going back up to 80% again means a trip length of >300 miles on a 200mile EV. you would also only go back up to 80% if you needed the charge complete the trip or needed to have a further charge on top of that. Otherwise you’d just stick in what you need to get home in the day, why wait round for longer and pay more than was needed?

E.G. you have a 200 mile EV, you need to do 250 miles. You probably only need to be on a HPC for <10 mins to get you home.

In something like a Kona like you have you are probably talking >370 mile trips with a 100% to 10% back up to 80% and back to 10% again given how efficient the car is.

Exactly this, my only wobble was going to Edinburgh but manage to drop into a carpark near Hotel and left overnight on 11kW. Thats a big trip though but about the only case ive wanted to get to a destination with more head room than 5% and Ive had the car 1 year nearly now.

I have far more frustration now when having to put fuel in cars!

 

[WJA96]

>150 miles a day, 5 days a week is north of 40k miles a year. That’s some mileage even for your ‘traveling sales person’.

It’s fine to charge to 100% and then use it the following day and always has been. People charge to 80% because they only do 30 miles a day and pinning the battery at a high state of charge constantly will cause it to degrade a bit faster than keeping it at 80 or below. On a 200 mile EV, driving it 30 miles is only going to use about 15%.




That’s fine but you would have already done a 100% to 5-10%, going back up to 80% again means a trip length of >300 miles on a 200mile EV. you would also only go back up to 80% if you needed the charge complete the trip or needed to have a further charge on top of that. Otherwise you’d just stick in what you need to get home in the day, why wait round for longer and pay more than was needed?

E.G. you have a 200 mile EV, you need to do 250 miles. You probably only need to be on a HPC for <10 mins to get you home.

In something like a Kona like you have you are probably talking >370 mile trips with a 100% to 10% back up to 80% and back to 10% again given how efficient the car is.

I don't do it every day, but I do a 500 mile round trip at least once per week. And the maths is predicated on there being a charger when you're showing 10% or 5% battery left and that's generally not the case, so you have to stop a bit earlier usually. It's not an issue, I'm quite happy. But when people ask me how many miles it does and I say "realistically, 200" they always say - "but it's a 300 mile WLTP car". Which it is, but it won't do more than 200 miles continuously on the motorway on an 80% charge. And I think we should be honest with each other about that.

[Edit]And I don't go home every night either! So it's generally rapids to 80% [/Edit]

 

[peige]

When I first got my 3LR I thought it was the new chemistry battery and was charging it to 90 every day but the app starting to warn me about doing that and it not being good for the battery. When you set the charge levels on the latest version of the app it actually shows directly daily charge level suggestions and "trip" suggesting levels. Now I charge to 80 every day and higher if I have a few miles to do over the weekend (as its better for me to charge at work, although I do have a home charger too)

 

[Journey]

Pfft, my car regularly sees single digit percentages on the battery try to keep it to 3-4%, but has been as low as 1% when I was feeling particularly brave. Charging is done as and when it is needed, but being an ex Agile users it used to get topped off to 100% very often, and now if it is really sunny and my home battery is full it will divert to the car, like today as I'm not out in it, so will no doubt hit near 100% again.

As for rapid charging I agree that charging past 80% in a lot of cars make no sense due to the fall off, but that is changing with newer models, and we all know sensible people who actually want to make their journeys shorter would use the optimal charging curve, if they aren't stopping for a reason which pushes them past that. I've gone past 90% on a rapid before, which would be stupid in most circumstances as 76-95% takes about as long as 10%-70% does, but I was doing "other stuff" not just there for a charge.

 

[WJA96]

Prefer having full regen and capacity to take charge if its convinient. Plus marginal benefit for calender aging by avoiding cells sat close 100% SoC

So does the Jaguar not regen on a full battery? The Hyundai uses the upper buffer to still allow regen at 100% battery. I don't know what it would do if you attempted to regen down the Stelvio Pass, but for the first couple of miles it still works.

 

[jpaul]

I don't know what it would do if you attempted to regen down the Stelvio Pass

aaah there is a charger at the top ? haven't been to a ski resort for a few years to see how they are provisioned.

From 1 December, new prices will apply across the BP Pulse network. The cost per kWh of energy for subscribers has risen from 23p to 32p for the firm's standard public chargers (AC 43kW/DC 50kW) and from 29p to 38p for registered users.
The firm's fastest (150kW) devices will now cost 38p per kWh subscribers, 44p for registered users and 50p for pay-as-you-go users, while the slower 7kW units cost from 28p per kWh.
Meanwhile, Instavolt, which claims to be "the largest owner-operator of rapid DC charging stations in the UK", has announced a price hike from 40p per kWh to 45p – also effective from 1 December

 

[Minstadave]

So does the Jaguar not regen on a full battery? The Hyundai uses the upper buffer to still allow regen at 100% battery. I don't know what it would do if you attempted to regen down the Stelvio Pass, but for the first couple of miles it still works.

Yeah it has markedly reduced regen for the first few minutes when setting off at 100%.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

So does the Jaguar not regen on a full battery? The Hyundai uses the upper buffer to still allow regen at 100% battery. I don't know what it would do if you attempted to regen down the Stelvio Pass, but for the first couple of miles it still works.

Yes just limited and then will fill, theres an update that allows a bit more now. With 4WD and a big battery is a serious about of regen. (first car to do WLTP without friction brakes)

You can see the line between regen/friction brakes introduced on the dash wide in regen move down as the battery empties.

 

[ICDP]

I don't disagree with you. To get that 216 miles theoretical you would have to literally start out with 100% and run it to zero. It's not surprising that people get in their cars (charged to 80% because that's what the internet says to do) and then they run them down to 10% (because that's about as low as most people want to go) and they're shocked because they've only got 150 miles of driving. So if you left home with 100% you could do 195 miles at 2.8miles per kW consumed. but if you then rapid charged to 80% you'd only het 150 miles on the next leg of the journey. So the honest real-world range of an iD4, as most people would use it, at 70mph is really 150 miles as posted originally. It's not surprising that people are often disappointed by the range of their cars.

And that's the same for all cars. I did note though that the new Tesla's have their charge management without a daily maximum limit indicated on the batteries. That might suggest they are chargeable every day to 100%.

I'm sorry but what you described is not close to what you claim as "most people would use it" and would be a scenario the VAST majority would encounter 2 or 3 times per year at most. Most people will charge at home as and when they need to and never go more than 40 miles on a single day (at worst). I have done longer range trips 3 times in 18 months in my E-Tron 50 with max range of 180 miles. I charge to 100% before I leave, and when using rapids just let it sit to 100% again. It will have no impact on battery life becuase it is a rare occurence. I have yet to know ANYONE who owns an EV who only charges to 80% when they are going on a long trip. So your scenario is not how most people would use it, it is how most EV owners "wouldn't" do it.

Incidentally 0% to 100% charge in an VAG MEB platform car is ~60 minutes at a 125kW+ rapid charger. VAG are allegedly going to release an update to reduce that to ~45 minutes.

 

[WJA96]

I'm sorry but what you described is not close to what you claim as "most people would use it" and would be a scenario the VAST majority would encounter 2 or 3 times per year at most. Most people will charge at home as and when they need to and never go more than 40 miles on a single day (at worst). I have done longer range trips 3 times in 18 months in my E-Tron 50 with max range of 180 miles. I charge to 100% before I leave, and when using rapids just let it sit to 100% again. It will have no impact on battery life becuase it is a rare occurence. I have yet to know ANYONE who owns an EV who only charges to 80% when they are going on a long trip. So your scenario is not how most people would use it, it is how most EV owners "wouldn't" do it.

Possibly it's because I don't know anyone who doesn't do at least 20K miles per year. But that's how everyone I know does it.

Incidentally 0% to 100% charge in an VAG MEB platform car is ~60 minutes at a 125kW+ rapid charger. VAG are allegedly going to release an update to reduce that to ~45 minutes.

That's a really odd statement to make. Irrespective of battery capacity and onboard charger they all take an hour? Cool.

I take it you've not seen the RSEV Youtube video then?

 

[ICDP]

See here in lies the problem. You made an absurd argument from a postion of poorly concevied logic, got called out and are moving the goalposts.

You replied to my post that was specifically and accurately pointing out that MEB platform cars (Q4 in this case) are getting 2.8 mi/kW - 3.2 mi/kW in winter, which would be ~200+ miles range and NOT 150. Your reply was highly convoluted and an utterly unrealistic scenario about most people driving ~350 miles per day, but only ever charging to 80% (cus internet says so). All in some very vain and utterly failed attempt to show that an MEB car, really only has 150 miles of range.

Me stating the MEB cars charge 0% - 100% in 1 hour is specific because they were the type of EV we were SPECIFICALLY discussing. I was attempting to show that the difference between charging to 100% at a rapid compared to 80%, is negligible form a time point of view. You are the one trying to claim that "most people" do 20,0000+ miles per year and 350~ miles per day is "normal". You are also claiming that people who own EVs will only charge to 80% 100% of the time at rapid chargers. In reality they will charge to whatever they need to finish their journey, be it 25% or 100%.

 

[WJA96]

See here in lies the problem. You made an absurd argument from a postion of poorly concevied logic, got called out and are moving the goalposts.

You replied to my post that was specifically and accurately pointing out that MEB platform cars (Q4 in this case) are getting 2.8 mi/kW - 3.2 mi/kW in winter, which would be ~200+ miles range and NOT 150. Your reply was highly convoluted and an utterly unrealistic scenario about most people driving ~350 miles per day, but only ever charging to 80% (cus internet says so). All in some very vain and utterly failed attempt to show that an MEB car, really only has 150 miles of range.

Me stating the MEB cars charge 0% - 100% in 1 hour is specific because they were the type of EV we were SPECIFICALLY discussing. I was attempting to show that the difference between charging to 100% at a rapid compared to 80%, is negligible form a time point of view. You are the one trying to claim that "most people" do 20,0000+ miles per year and 350~ miles per day is "normal". You are also claiming that people who own EVs will only charge to 80% 100% of the time at rapid chargers. In reality they will charge to whatever they need to finish their journey, be it 25% or 100%.

This is why I don't post here. My response was actually about ALL BEVs.

 

[ICDP]

Which is why, for myself at least, I want a car which will do at least 200 miles accounting for cold,weather, heating, wipers, 10-80% charge time etc. There are plenty that fit this brief, the Q4 isnt one of them though.

A Tesla Model 3 will even find it impossible to fit that brief, if you are expecting "at least" 200 miles of range from 70% of the total battery charge in the coldest wettest winter days. Most winter tests here in the UK give about 220-250 miles in a TM3 LR on longer mostly motorway road trips for 100% charge. 80% charge would give ~200 miles range at best and sometimes lower and that is assuming you will drive it below 10%.

So I would say there is not a single EV out there that will get 200 miles of range from 70% of its battery in the coldest wettest UK winter days.

The numbers I have been giving for the MEB ID.4 and Q4 are for 100% state of charge.

 

[ICDP]

This is why I don't post here. My response was actually about ALL BEVs.

Nope, you are moving the goalposts again. This is your post, specifically replying to my post that was specifically about the ID.4 (and Q4) real world range in winter.

https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/posts/35293979/

The fact you qualified at the end it was the same for all EVs means nothing in this context. You were wrongly implying that all EVs (and by extension the ID.4) should only quote ranges at 80% battery.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

Whilst also posting here to confirm he doesn’t post here

 

[ICDP]

I don't want to sound confrontational but I call out when people are making convoluted arguments why EV range isn't really what it really is.

Claim: I need a car that gets 200 winter miles and the Q4 only gets 150 winter miles
- No it doesn't and here's proof.

Claim changed: Well the Q4 only gets 170 miles on the coldest winter days.
- No it doesn't and heres more proof.

Claim changed again: I meant on the coldest wettest winter days and have also decided to set an arbitrary cap of 80% maximum allowable battery charge. Oh and you are not allowed to use the last 10% of battery. So I want at least 200 miles of range on the coldest wettest winter day and only want to use 70% of the battery.
- Well even the most efficient of EVs will find it mpossible to achieve that.
Hmmm, OK.

It's the old anti EV meme of "unless it can drive 500 miles towing a caravan in a blizzard at 80mph on a motorway, EVs suck".