Singapore Grand Prix 2015, Marina Bay - Race 13/19

Skeeter - I like your FOM engine idea but I cant see how it would work

Legally not a problem, technically however Ferrari or Merc ( as per your example) would have to provide tech support internally to those teams that they didnt choose. I can see this opening a can of worms and one potentialy hard if not impossible to prove any wrong doing, unless FOM themselves support the engine which is surely likely to significantly hit performance?

Its not like the engine is a plug in part similar to the McLaren contracted gizmo to all teams, its far more labour intensive etc etc and asking Ferrari to supply team members to a third party team they didnt choose will end in tears



Maybe im being naive but I really don't see why majority of tech in F1 can't be used on road cars in the future, most is not around the corner but its certainly viable IF the msnufacturers want it to be once reliability is found

deuse said:

As I've said there WAS 4 engine suppliers. Nothing about if or but.
You really need to back off and read posts as stated. Not add your own statements.
You have been told this by many members of this forum.

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You're correct in saying that there were 4 engine suppliers but that doesn't mean F1 would still have 4 engine suppliers from 2014 onwards if it had stayed with V8s. Remember that only Ferrari wanted the V8s. IF they'd called Merc and Renault's bluff MAYBE they would have stayed. That's a big risk. I'd think it's more likely they'd have gone to something like WEC which would have been more relevant to their road cars.

I miss the sound of the V8/V10 cars, it was part of the thrill. I very much agree with the shift to the V6s, it's just a pity we've had to lose some of the sound.

@Frank. I agree, its an idea, but would be complex and difficult to manage. But then the current situation where Ferrari and Mercedes are banning everyone else from being competitive is hardly an ideal solution either.

Regarding the engines, Cosworth had confirmed they wouldn't carry on with a new format and Ranult had confirmed they would not carry on if F1 kept the V8s, so regardless of ifs or buts, we were confirmed to be down to just Ferrari and Mercedes in 2014 had they not moved to a new engine formula.

JRS said:

Being allowed to choose your layout would have been better for everyone. And if they had been allowed to choose, I would be willing to bet that no-one would choose a 90° angled V6.

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So long as it was controlled, I agree (especially on the 90 degree V6 turbo point, its a widely unused format). I have zero faith in the FIAs ability to manage a multi format engine formula though, but the ACO have proved its possible.

But... The ACO has also just mandated a single spec engine for P2 on cost grounds, so they are facing the same problems as F1 in their 'customer teams' division. Basically if you have a truck load of money an open engine formula is OK, but F1 only has a handful of teams who have that money, the rest are hanging on their coat tails asking for hand me downs. The risk is you create a 2 tier formula

But then F1 is heading that way anyway with the Current -1 idea, so perhaps there is no perfect solution and we should just accept that F1 will remain broken.

deuse said:

It's now slower by 5-8 seconds a lap.

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Pole lap times 2013 vs 2015

Aus 1:27.407 | 1:26.327
Mal 1:49.674 | 1:49.834
Chi 1:34.484 | 1:35.782
Bah 1:32.330 | 1:32.571
Esp 1:20.718 | 1:24.681
Mon 1:13.876 | 1:15.098
Can 1:13.784 | 1:14.393
Bri 1:29.607 | 1:32.248
Hun 1:19.388 | 1:22.020
Spa 1:48.298 | 1:47.197
Ita 1:23.755 | 1:23.397
Sin 1:42.841 | 1:43.885

(used time from 2012 on wet qually weekends)

Most a little slower than in 2013 - a few were quicker.. with less aero, no blown diffuser, harder tyres, 1/3 less fuel used on heavier cars in just their second year of new engine tech. How terrible.

Loldeuse

Like you say, they are around the same speed, while being what, 50kg heavier, and using 1/3rd less fuel.

5-8 seconds is fantasy, although the China -> Hungary (with the exception of Bahrain) times on that list are an average of +2 seconds slower.

deuse said:

May as well add that the BBC’s audience is down 25 percent, with Sky Sports F1 down 32 percent year-on-year(2015)
As I've said..F1 is dying a slow death.

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You may well add that, but there are plenty of other more profitable markets.

http://raconteur.net/business/f1s-high-octane-profits

F1 is booming.

BBC audience is falling because their coverage is dire and their chosen broadcast circuits are rubbish.

Sky Sports F1 is down because now people have to pay for it rather than have it free with HD. But guess what - audience numbers are down yet revenue is up.

BT Sport are currently operating exactly the same model that Sky did. Viewers of Champions League football will fall this year and the next, yet revenues will be up. Fans are being increasingly monetised.

CVC and the others are not in to F1 for the number of viewers. They're into it for the money in their wallets.

Lol, I hadnt even twigged that he was again using UK broadcasting figures as evidence to support a global downturn in F1 figures.

Edit: wow, I didn't realise they distributed this much of their profits!

The company only has around 340 staff and its biggest single cost is a payment of 63 per cent of its gross profits to the teams as prize money. Over the five years to 2013 the prize money payment accelerated by 46.6 per cent to $797.5 million due to the boom in interest in F1.

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So teams are getting ~50% more prize money now than they were in 2008. Sorry if I now give even less sympathy to those crying "we need more money from the prize pool".

Deuse somehow doesn't grasp that free tv has higher viewer ratings than subscription based tv and won't have this explained to him. It is plainly obvious to anyone with the smallest amount of critical thinking why the figures would be down. He also ignores the massive revenue increase. Viewers don't matter to a sports health, revenue does. F1 has never been healthier.

BBC viewer numbers should be down as frankly though plenty of sky users give up F1 because it costs more this year, a bunch of people also move from BBC to Sky to get their F1. Also a huge HUGE number of people watch streams of F1, which aren't included in the viewing figures. If you go on one of several forums, reddit in particular, you can see how many people are watching streams.

The we need more money crowd deserve sympathy, it's a scale nothing more of nothing less.

The top team get 100mil more today than 8 years ago, that means they pay higher wages, that means every team ends up paying more to the same people doing the same jobs. What was once 50k a year for a wheel gun man is now 100k at the top team but still 65k at Manor otherwise the guys move to a different team or different series.

Money has a knock on effect. Also costs go up, transportation costs increase, shops producing specific parts start increasing costs as they can charge the top teams more and as some materials get more expensive. The cost to compete goes up, the lowest teams got an unfair share then and get an unfair share today.

With 10 teams it's not as big a deal, everyone below 10th gets utterly screwed. You can set up a team to run on say 80mil one year as you got 60mil total from the various pools. The next year you finish 11th and 40mil of your budget disappears. It's ridiculous and you can't remotely plan a company to improve or to survive long term with your budget halving one year and doubling the next. You can't sensibly expand or attempt to compete by spending 40mil more without needing to fire half the workforce the following year when you fail.

The premier league gives every team 50% of the money equally shared, the rest is shared out less equally but still means a large chunk for everyone. The difference between the minimum and max is relatively small but importantly even the lowest placed team has a certain income assured that allows them to be competitive and doesn't randomly go up massively every year. Even with relegation a lowered payment to help ease the transition is in place.

The current money distribution is hugely problematic for the teams outside the top 10.

Well that wont be a problem next year when there's only 8 teams racing

Duke said:

Pole lap times 2013 vs 2015

Aus 1:27.407 | 1:26.327.....1:24.125
Mal 1:49.674 | 1:49.834......1:34.223
Chi 1:34.484 | 1:35.782.......1:32.238
Bah 1:32.330 | 1:32.571......1:30.252
Esp 1:20.718 | 1:24.681......1:21.670
Mon 1:13.876 | 1:15.098......
Can 1:13.784 | 1:14.393......1:13.622
Bri 1:29.607 | 1:32.248.......1:30.874
Hun 1:19.388 | 1:22.020.....1:19.071
Spa 1:48.298 | 1:47.197.....1:45.108
Ita 1:23.755 | 1:23.397......1:21.046
Sin 1:42.841 | 1:43.885.....1:48.574

(used time from 2012 on wet qually weekends)

Most a little slower than in 2013 - a few were quicker.. with less aero, no blown diffuser, harder tyres, 1/3 less fuel used on heavier cars in just their second year of new engine tech. How terrible.

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Now lets look at some lap times done in the race with a very very old V10.
F1 is getting very slow. Unlike MotoGp were they break the lap record in the race at every track every year.

Oh and the sound of those V10s ..music to my ears. Unlike the sound of farts we have now.

V10s tuned to blow up after 2 hours vs V6s tuned to last 5 full race weekends.

Yep, totally valid comparison.

Also, weren't you talking about how they should have stuck with the V8's?

Should go back the H16 or V16 to be honest.

Some sarcasm may be present in the above.

Did the H16 ever get used in anger?

Edit: Wiki says it was, for 1966. Despite being massive, heavy and complicated, it did win a race in the back of a Lotus 43.

Edit 2: Lol! That was the only race that the Lotus 43 actually finished!

deuse said:

Unlike MotoGp were they break the lap record in the race at every track every year.

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Um....MotoGP record lap at Silverstone was set back in 2013. They didn't better it in 2014. Circuit race lap record is I believe 2'01.941, Marquez got the fastest lap of the '14 race with a 2'01.980. The outright best lap is 2'00.691 set in 2013, the '14 pole time was 2'00.829.

Now, that took me less than a minute to find an example that contradicted you. Would you like me to spend a few minutes extra and utter annihilate your point?

***edit***

Eh, what the hell. Wasn't doing anything else while my computer was number-crunching.

13 rounds of the 2015 MotGP season have been held so far. The race lap record was broken at six of them - round 3 in Argentina, round 4 at Jerez, round 8 at Assen, round 9 in Germany, round 10 at Indy and round 13 at Misano. Now, I'm just a simply country fella and I got problems of my own, but I could swear that six wasn't in fact thirteen

But what about the outright records? Well, take Quatar. The opening round of the 2015 season was held there. And the best lap of the circuit ever ridden? Set in 2008. Though for the sake of full disclosure, I will point out that Qatar is the only track that they've been to so far this year where the outright circuit record has stood for that long - most tracks they've been to this year they either beat the record or it was only set in 2014 or 2013.

JRS said:

snip.

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should have said Moto2 moto3 as well. How many IN RACE lap records has F1 got in since these fart machines?

deuse said:

should have said Moto2 moto3 as well.

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And again, there's no way that at EVERY Moto2 and Moto3 race this season they've broken the race lap record or outright lap record. They didn't break the outright record at Jerez (stood since 2011 IIRC) in Moto2 for example.

Surrender gracefully deuse.

deuse said:

How many IN RACE lap records has F1 got in since these fart machines?

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Keke Rosberg's average speed lap record stood for 17 years with some of the best F1 cars of all time missing the mark (the utterly dominant MP4/4 and FW14 included).

Records exist, but they're only relevant to their era.

JRS said:

And again, there's no way that at EVERY Moto2 and Moto3 race this season they've broken the race lap record or outright lap record. They didn't break the outright record at Jerez (stood since 2011 IIRC) in Moto2 for example.

Surrender gracefully deuse.

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(cough "Lorenzo sets new lap record to claim pole at Jerez" Cough)

"Movistar Yamaha’s Jorge Lorenzo sent the Spanish fans into rapture by setting a 1’37.910, the only time anyone has ever been under the 1’38 mark on two wheels at the Spanish circuit"

Never give up. Never surrender

@drunkenmaster I was pointing out that for both Freeview and paid are still losing viewers. But you went on a A4 troll.

Skeeter said:

V10s tuned to blow up after 2 hours vs V6s tuned to last 5 full race weekends.

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Tell that to RB
But now you'll come back with "I didn't..It could..Maybe" you sure your not still in school?