Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (April Poll)

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

  • Remain a member of the European Union

    Votes: 452 45.0%
  • Leave the European Union

    Votes: 553 55.0%

  • Total voters
    1,005
  • Poll closed .
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Caporegime
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There's an important difference, we can choose to be bound by international treaties and agreements and make them part of UK law, but EU law by definition will always override UK law. That's the whole basis of the Supremacy of EU Law and why so people (me included) have a problem with that concept. Our signing up to international treaties doesn't mean we're giving the power to create supreme law to a foreign body, but that's exactly what we've done by being in the EU.

The ability of the EU to create law is entirely bound by international agreements we signed up to.

Dominic Raab, a justice minister, said the decisions of the ECJ “affect everything from the price of beer to the cost of home insulation” and “undermine the basic principle of our democracy — that the British people can hold to account those who write the laws of our land”.

But this is false. The EU is democratically accountable to the British people through our national parliament and it's appointed representatives and through directly elected MEPs.

And while we're quoting that article, allow me a quote of my own:

Far from being expansionary, they say, the ECJ has stepped back from ruling on certain issues — including the legality of public spending cuts in EU countries such as Portugal and Ireland.

“Some of what has been said about the influence of the EU charter is overblown and inaccurate,” said Damian Chalmers, professor of EU law at the London School of Economics.

Lord Goldsmith, who as attorney-general negotiated a supposed “opt-out” of the charter on behalf of Tony Blair’s Labour government, said “the EU charter only reflects existing law in any event; it doesn’t grant new rights”.​

EU law is not UK law, they are different legal frameworks.

No, EU law is not UK law, that doesn't stop it being our law. We're part of the EU; it's not some remote law making body of which we're not part.

Norway have retained most importantly their sovereignty, but also don't have to listen to the European Court of Justice (whereas the UK is currently forced to), they can adjust VAT (we currently can't), they're outside of CAP/CFP (we have to adhere to it), they can negotiate trade deals globally (we can't), and the list goes on.

And they're bound by rules they have no part in making. How does being bound by rules you don't make increase your sovereignty? The concept makes no sense.
 
Soldato
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No need to compensate ;)

So they've already written down the negotiating lines for the government, finalised the special deal and how we would be able to exert the same sort of influence on our own, have they? Excellent! :D


More uncertainty from the Cudda, Shudda, Wudda, Whatabout:eek: Club. :p A big win for the UK in the EU. :)
 
Soldato
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Lol Brexiteers gonna Brexiteer

I just want the Broxits to admit to a planned deep post-Brexit integration with the common market, and free movement, treaty compliance and continued payment of the membership fees that entails; or the massively oversold and unfunded 'special deal' nobody knows about or has agreed to even in principle...

... and then watch their case collapse like Zac Goldsmith on a lash.
 
Soldato
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The ability of the EU to create law is entirely bound by international agreements we signed up to.

The UK giving its "consent to be bound" to international treaties is not the same as how EU law compromises the doctrine of parliamentary sovereignty.

But this is false. The EU is democratically accountable to the British people through our national parliament and it's appointed representatives and through directly elected MEPs.

Come on, do you really believe that? How is the EU democratically accountable to the British people? Do we vote for anyone in the executive? No. Do we directly elect the 1 British representative in the Counsel of Ministers? No. Do our people get to be jury in the European Courts? No. We get one vote, every 5 years, to elect MEP's who make up less than 10% of the total number (soon to be less than that when Turkey, Albania, Macedonia etc join). Besides, the Parliament isn't where power sits, that's the Commission, which is completely unelected. People have shown what they really think of the European Parliament, and how much "power" it has in voting numbers - turnout for MEP elections has decreased every single year since it started.

Even some of the most vehement remain supporters I've spoken to accept the EU has a problem with democracy, you only have to look at how they react when referenda don't go their way or better still, look at some of the quotes coming out of EU officials. The whole concept of the "democratic deficit" is well established, whichever side of the debate you're on. I think remainers still clinging onto the hope that some people will believe the EU is/can be democratic really doesn't do their argument any favours.

No, EU law is not UK law, that doesn't stop it being our law. We're part of the EU; it's not some remote law making body of which we're not part.

I and many others disagree, see above. The whole issue here is that the EU wants more and more power/control over historically domestic issues. It started with trade, then agriculture, transport, workers' rights. Then Justice, foreign policy etc. The trend and trajectory is clear to see.

The only good counterargument I've heard on this point from remainers is that they are federalists and believe over time the UK should hand all power to the EU to achieve their dream of a European Superstate. If that's what you want then fine, but I and many others certainly don't want that.

And they're bound by rules they have no part in making. How does being bound by rules you don't make increase your sovereignty? The concept makes no sense.

You keep making this same point without showing any willingness to actually debate the detail. I've explained above (and this links demonstrates it well) Norway has far more control/power over various areas, and most importantly they retain the supremacy of their own law. Being subordinate to the European Court of Justice is another tangible example, we are subordinate, Norway is not. There are other examples in the above link. I and other Brexit supporters don't believe we have any real influence over EU law anyway, so basing your argument on that just won't convince people unless they can see we do have influence, and I'm still to see any good evidence of that.
 
Caporegime
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The UK giving its "consent to be bound" to international treaties is not the same as how EU law compromises the doctrine of parliamentary sovereignty.

No, it's exactly the same thing. We made a treaty with the EU, and it's power enters our legal system on exactly the same basis as other international law. That this is true is obvious from the simple fact we're having a referendum on staying in the EU. Our parliament reserves the right to reverse prior treaty. Doing so does, of course, have consequence.

Come on, do you really believe that? How is the EU democratically accountable to the British people? Do we vote for anyone in the executive? No. Do we directly elect the 1 British representative in the Counsel of Ministers? No.

No, it's chosen by our democratically elected government. Just as our representatives in other international negotiations are chosen by our government. The number of people who are directly elected in the UK is tiny compared to the number of people who serve in our government. Democracy is achieved not directly but by accountability to the elected positions.

Do our people get to be jury in the European Courts? No.

I cannot think of a single court that is elected. Do you expect to choose judges in the county court or the supreme court? No, you don't. Why should the ECJ be different.

We get one vote, every 5 years, to elect MEP's who make up less than 10% of the total number (soon to be less than that when Turkey, Albania, Macedonia etc join).

The EU is much bigger than the UK. I don't expect us to have an unreasonable level of say in its running anymore than I expect Leicester South to dictate policy to the UK.

Even some of the most vehement remain supporters I've spoken to accept the EU has a problem with democracy, you only have to look at how they react when referenda don't go their way or better still, look at some of the quotes coming out of EU officials. The whole concept of the "democratic deficit" is well established, whichever side of the debate you're on. I think remainers still clinging onto the hope that some people will believe the EU is/can be democratic really doesn't do their argument any favours.

The EU is undemocratic to the extent to which it is accountable to national governments. It can't be both directly democratic and accountable to national governments; there is a direct conflict between the power of directly democratic elements of the EU and those accountable to national governments. It cannot be more democratic without reducing national sovereignty. There has to be a balance.

You keep making this same point without showing any willingness to actually debate the detail. I've explained above (and this links demonstrates it well) Norway has far more control/power over various areas, and most importantly they retain the supremacy of their own law. Being subordinate to the European Court of Justice is another tangible example, we are subordinate, Norway is not.

I keep making the point because you never address it. How does being bound by rules we no longer have any say over increase our sovereignty? Or are you arguing that it does reduce our sovereignty but that we make more back elsewhere?

I and other Brexit supporters don't believe we have any real influence over EU law anyway, so basing your argument on that just won't convince people unless they can see we do have influence, and I'm still to see any good evidence of that.

I find the idea that the UK has no influence silly, so I feel little need to address it.
 
Associate
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The EU is much bigger than the UK. I don't expect us to have an unreasonable level of say in its running anymore than I expect Leicester South to dictate policy to the UK.

But then there is the argument that it doesn't matter about the size and proportionality of it (as it's fair that we have proportional say) but rather that the amount of policy they control should be beyond there remit. We should accept some laws but there's no reason we should have to be tied to a system that tries to increasingly drag us to have more of our laws decided by more outside influences. The point is whether we should be in that situation at all, trade agreemants are an agreemant to trade but it sounds like quite a few countries have voiced there concerns about the way the EU operates and it's not changed a thing.

Is it wrong to believe the EU should stick to being an economic union and not trying to claw it's way into all the other parts of countries legal systems?
 
Soldato
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No, it's exactly the same thing. We made a treaty with the EU, and it's power enters our legal system on exactly the same basis as other international law. That this is true is obvious from the simple fact we're having a referendum on staying in the EU. Our parliament reserves the right to reverse prior treaty. Doing so does, of course, have consequence.

That's not right. There's a mechanism that allows us to leave (Article 50) and if we do that we can repeal the European Community Act 1972, which established the concept of EU law being supreme. Section 3(1) for example says that decisions of the ECJ overrule UK precedents. Unless we leave, the EU will continue to be the supreme legislative power.

No, it's chosen by our democratically elected government. Just as our representatives in other international negotiations are chosen by our government. The number of people who are directly elected in the UK is tiny compared to the number of people who serve in our government. Democracy is achieved not directly but by accountability to the elected positions.

So you're saying the UK government choosing two individuals out of the entirety of the EU bureaucracy means.......the EU is therefore democratic and accountable? Come on, that's a tenuous link. The commission initiatives all the law and is unelected, unaccountable and frankly, most people have never heard of any of them. We're letting a body which is wholly undemocratic create laws that are supreme to our own.

The UK Government picking a representative for itself in negotiations is very different to how the EU is run as above.

The EU is much bigger than the UK. I don't expect us to have an unreasonable level of say in its running anymore than I expect Leicester South to dictate policy to the UK.

The question is how big should Government get? Are you accepting that remain means we continue to move toward further integration and power continues to move away from the UK? If so then how far should it go? It seems the current 28 countries and 500m people isn't enough, so 5 more are on the candidate list. How many more will be added in the next 40+ years?

If the EU was a genuinely progressive, democratic, representative institution then the above might be OK. But it isn't, it works in favour of corporate interests, removes democracy and centralises power in the hands of an unelected few.

It all comes back to the old saying - the further power is away from you the less able you are to influence it.

I keep making the point because you never address it. How does being bound by rules we no longer have any say over increase our sovereignty? Or are you arguing that it does reduce our sovereignty but that we make more back elsewhere?

Being in the EU means they have power/sovereignty over more areas of our laws than if we're outside the EU. It's as simple as that. You keep banging on about influence, but the EU means we have less influence over our own lives, for example:

The EU trade deal with Australia is being held up because some Italian tomato-growers are challenging it. The EU trade deal with Canada is being held up due to an unrelated dispute about Romanian visas. We cannot influence these things because they're outside of our control, but if we left we could, and we could negotiate deals in our best interest.

And again, if it's such a bad deal then why are the Norwegians and Swiss happy with what they've got?

I find the idea that the UK has no influence silly, so I feel little need to address it.

Fine, but being unable to prove it doesn't help your case much, and won't sway those on the fence who can patently see we have little influence.
 
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Caporegime
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Recent polling from YouGov puts Scotland at 63-37 Remain-Leave.

interesting conclusion:

Conservative supporters are less likely to say “don’t know” to questions on public policy. But today, there are two million of them who are torn between the two sides. In a close race they could well be decisive. Will they end up loyal to their party leader and cast a risk-averse vote for continued membership of the EU – or will dislike of Brussels and the appeal of Boris Johnson and other leading Tories propel them to a vote for Brexit?

On the other side of the party fence, the turnout of Labour voters matters hugely. They currently comprise 47 per cent of all pro-EU voters. If Jeremy Corbyn’s reluctance to campaign enthusiastically for the party’s long-established policy causes a significant number of Labour supporters to stay at home, this could be fatal for the pro-EU cause.

Boris, potentially, could swing it if Labour remain apathetic... and Corbyn has been anti-EU in the past so perhaps not going to campaign quite so enthusiastically for the remain campaign.
 
Soldato
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Up north i don't even feel part of the UK ,nevermind the EU .

Only person I've spoken to that says they will vote to stay in is an idiot at work who's reason was "well Obama said so" :p
 
Soldato
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Well that's simply not true. All of the polls have remain in the lead. The poll of polls has a 6% lead for remain. And if you're into your bookies odds then. 3/10 to Remain against 9/4 to leave says it all.

This country will stay in the EU. Everything else is just noise ;)

Agree. People talk about voting to leave, but opting for the unknown will fill your average voter with dread/fear, so they'll either not vote or vote remain.

And like you say if it was that close, the betting odds would reflect that. The whole thing seems like a pointless exercise who's only purpose is to silence EU-opponents.
 
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