Sort out photo and video forum: Ideas

It only takes a brief glance at this subforum to realise that this subforum has become a spec me forum rather than one dedicated to creative outlet. I've got a couple of ideas of how we can sort this out, short of paying all the old talents and contributors to come back:

1: Lock ALL of the Post your pictures here threads - they suck the life out of the forums as critiques no longer happen and advice is no longer given.
2: Create one Gear Discussion thread or a couple of Spec Me A:, Canon Lens Discussion, Nikon Body Discussion, Canon Body Discussion etc. threads so they don't clutter up the front page so much - usually these threads can be answered in one response and people clearly don't need much pushing to start talking about what gear is better than what.
3. (More hopeful than likely) Get rid of the no business interests rules as they pertain to photography. The way these forums work is that respect and potential custom is earned by being a helpful and talented member of the community. Professional photographers are not here to advertise, but then not allowing them to use watermarks of business names etc. is only hurting this community because it means once a photographer is good enough to make money, they are actively punished by the rulesets. We've lost too many really talented photographers to this rule, and I don't see how it hurts OcUK as a business to have these members of the community. Nobody will listen to some random joe coming in with post count:1 and saying "I'm the best wedding photographer in London, I have an HD camera with 22MP, hire me, I am le super cheap", whereas having photographers like Raymond around was an undeniable boon to the community.

I understand that obviously threads along the lines of "Hire me here" or "looking for a wedding photographer" might present legitimate problems, but people using their business watermark should have nothing to do with that. All the rule does is serve to present yet another barrier to entry for people posting photos and looking to get involved in the community.

It's almost undeniable that this community gets weaker and weaker as each month goes by (and that it's coincided with clamping down of pro photographers and all those shenanigans about watermarks), and we need to try and work out what's wrong, and sort it out. My ideas aren't the guaranteed fix-alls, but we do need to get a discussion going to get us back to our old standards - I don't want to have to rely on TalkPhotography and the 501 "look at my baby I took average photos of" threads that entails.

Totally agree about the watermarks.

I think you need a 3 threads for gear - Canon, Nikon and Other.

Agreed on the other subjects aswell.

Maybe less of a 'lets put all our photos in one thread'

you could just as easily create a subforum to this subforum for gear talk, just like there is a motorsport section in the car section.

I hate the generic threads where everyone posts photos, no comments, no feedback and it seems to just be the same couple of people continuously posting in some of them so if you do post, they are lost.

As for business interests, I can't see why it should be a problem in this section. We are a community and as a community if someone needs something then if possible we should be able to provide it for them. Many of us pro's don't just post in here and as long as it's limited to people who actually contribute and aren't just here for the pimping of their own business then it should be fine.

1: I didn't realise that my thread has hit 1m views, pretty cool. Anyway, I think there's a fine balance to be struck - the mega-thread allows people to post images in a pretty relaxed manner and it also allows other members to quickly browse through the latest images. The result of locking the thread will mean that a) people will be afraid/can't be bothered to share their images and b) other users will find it easier to pass over threads that seem boring and tend only open threads by established members. The single thread is more democratic in that sense. Another strength is its flexibility in terms of content. It's the other threads that are the real problem, if you're going to post holiday shots, a wedding set, a portraiture session, a landscape set or a street set make it a separate thread, since the photos you're about to post are linked in terms of subject and theme anyway! As for the lack of critique... It's often given when asked for or if there's a glaring misstep in an image.

2: I don't think that gear threads are being made at the expense of the more creative ones - again it's the more subject specific ones that are to blame.

3: As for watermarks... agreed, they don't conflict with OcUK's business interests, you have people posting daily deals/offers on games in the gaming sections and that's allowed, so why not photography sites? Yes, they're advertising for free, but the benefits outlined outweigh the nonexistent threat of someone choosing say, Raymond, over OcUK to shoot their wedding. Just make sure that any strings of text that are obvious instances of search engine baiting don't slip through, I'm sure the community here will be self governing in that regard.

Yeah we had years of basically self moderating, because nobody likes blatant advertising, but then the clamp down on 'business interests' happened and all of a sudden the forums died because respected members of the forums, who happened to be pro photographers (it's kind of hard to hide whether you're a pro or not if you're posting photos from 3 weddings a month anyway), were suddenly no longer welcome.

In terms of the specific threads for gear stuff, I'd have:

A general "Spec me" thread, to keep the discussion of whatever latest £2000 telephoto etc. Canon has brought out from swallowing up questions asked by people just starting out - this way people that want to be helpful can reliably do so rather than have three chains of conversation in a single thread.

A thread for each manufacturer of bodies so that the gear rumors, lens discussion etc. can go on in here.

A third parties thread for discussion of Sigma, Tamron etc. as they'll pertain to both Canon and Nikon owners so having two separate conversations in each thread.

A thread for everything other than DSLR systems (as generally people buying a compact are more likely to be able to choose between brands).

As rubbish as the general standard of work on TP is, they've at least got a forum structure that encourages discussion rather than just talking about gear and then having the photos being posted as a gallery rather than looking for C&C.

Sometimes you just want to low effort photo dump or view rather than being forced to critique other peoples work. Don't get rid of "Post your pictures" threads.
Have a separate thread for people who want critiquing.

I agree with 1 and 3.

We need more photos in this forum, I purposely make a new thread when posting any images for that reason, and so I can actually get some critique on images, that is the reason for posting after all. When the consolidated threads were started the already meagre number of photo threads just disappeared, however I think the trend was already starting before then, it's why they came about in the first place. We need more people posting photos and more people critiquing images. This leads on to point 3, which does limit a large number of people posting as the rules are so vague. Most photographers are not going to post images online without a watermark yet most won't get round to doing two sets of images because they may or may not be seen to be advertising... Could we not have a bit of mod discussion here, if people are obviously posting just to drum up business (i.e. just posting images so people go "wow", no community discussions) then give them warnings and bans, however if you're an active member just posting images with watermarks then you're fine.

We also need just more people posting images. There are plenty of regular members on here who obvious spend a lot of money on gear yet have never posted an image on here. That's not a sleight at them, some people don't want to post what they have taken, but we should all lead from the front!

As for rule 2, I disagree. How do you discuss what filters to put on your lenses for example? It would just be a mess and it would cause the same problems the post your pictures threads are causing. Leave those as they are, it's fine to have threads tailored to specifics.

The way I've always seen it, is that the image threads are for general sharing and not for critique at all. As such you'll always get more posts in these than you will in single "for critique" style threads. If you want critique or feedback then you post a new thread. The image threads could be closed, but it's likely that you'll see even less posted overall as not everyone is comfortable with posting for critique. You could start using thread tags though? So as default a thread is posted for general sharing, but if you want critique you put [Critique] or something in the thread title?

A separate gear sub forum would be nice, but that's been asked for before. Requests not degenerating into fanboy drivel would also be nice, but hey this is the Internet so that ain't gonna happen! People clearly stating whether or not they are giving advice based on actual personal experience rather than something they read on a site/forum would be nice as well. I can't see threads for gear info requests working that well, as they'd probably not be that easy to search? Especially over time.

I've not seen the sig/watermark as much of an issue to be honest. The biggest problem was in how it was initially enforced...

I think the Forum reflects many of the other Forums - a place to pop in, ask someone that knows about a bit of kit, thanks for the information and see ya mentality and never to return. I think thats just symptomatic of society as a whole.

I think the Competition should remain and I do think the winner should pick the next topic, but perhaps a lot more thought should be given to the topics - there have definately been far more abstract and 'what the hell does that mean?' type of topics over the last couple of years. I think it needs to be balanced - there is nothing wrong with winner suggesting topics such as "Wildlife" or "Motors" or "Architecture" if they want to.

I also think the competition should be widened. It needs to include pictures taken with all forms of Cameras. Digital, Film, Compact and Mobile Phones. There should be no differentiation between them. Sure it is nice to see that person X has used Camera Y with Lens Z and 1/1000s shutter speed (and if your Camera has this information built into the image publish it), but isn't the whole point of the Competition to come up with a pleasing image?

I think there should be one 'Spec me thread' for those threads created by people popping it to ask a quick bit of advice before popping out possibly forever (it will cause a little work for the mods to move and consolidate these threads) but at least it will keep all the 'I need a compact camera for my mums birthday, which one should I get' threads in one place.

If we are talking about the Pros and cons of different systems/lenses and equipment then fair enough, there should be an individual thread.

Get rid of all the different threads where people post their 'sports' 'people' 'landscape' photos. Get rid of the 'Post your picture here thread'.

Replace these threads with a 'Critique' Thread where every can post a picture and receive feedback.

Next have an individual members "Portfolio" thread - i.e. the Title in my case would be "Photos by Andy90" I would post my own shots within it, you can discuss them if you want, but think of it as a Digital photo album by me. The more active members would probably end up on the front page more, but isn't that what we want - more activity? It would also serve two purposes, 1) You can find all the pictures by a user in one place via search. 2) It would over time reflect how people have developed.

It would also be nice to have a 'how did you do that' thread, where people can talk about techniques, not just in taking the shot, but also in processing it (be it film or digital).

Get rid of the Gear Waving Thread - it does nothing other than reinforce stereotypes - nice photograph of a lens or camera, but where are the pictures taken with it?

Lastly to the for some reason 'touchy' subject of Watermarks. I think the policy of the forums is right. No advertising or touting for business. You cannot have one section of the forum being allowed links to businesses (no matter how subtle) and not being allowed in another. I'm fairly certain a few webdesigners / programmers / motor mechanics etc would all love to have their company name and contact details in the relevant sections, so if they allow 'photographers' to do so they would have to allow everyone. Not going to happen I think.

Now I know a few people do make money out of Photography - thats great and I have no issue with that, but (and I'm going to have to pick my words carefully here since I'm not trying to cause offence), I cannot stand Wedding photography.

I can see that there have been some really nice pictures, but the whole genre does nothing for me. That said, Raymond Lin (and he isn't the only one and I'm certainly not singling him out) is in my opinion a good Photographer and I really do like his shots when he breaks out of his 'usual stuff' - I particularly liked the New York shots that he did. To me if someone makes money out of a particular type of shot and does something 'completely different' (in the words of Monty Python) then that makes me sit up and say 'wow thats nice'.

In short I don't think it is the 'lack of a business watermark' that is stopping people from posting here - there is no reason why they cannot put 'copyright 2013 Fred Bloggs' on the shot. It is a poor excuse as a reason for not posting.

Well thats my few thoughts on the subject.

Gear waving thread makes sense. I also feel for a spec me thread, we'd need more than one, otherwise it would descend into canon vs nikon vs pentax vs sony...

kd

watermarks arent the problem
willy waving isnt the problem

The issue is that no-one bothers to give any feedback to images posted for 99% of the time, and also threads often just turn into a complete farce. Look at the post whats in your bag thread - half the images there arent even in the ****ing bag!

I just post most of photo stuff on TP now, generally its a lot less hassle.

I agree dedicated gear threads would be good, or a sub forum. Thing is ocuk is a technical forum based on computer parts and this show n the photo forum. The most common threads are spec me threads. Remove that and this place is going to be very quite.

I understand some of you want to see more feedback and critique of posted photos rather than a big dump. I agree to a certain extent but ocuk has never really been a strong place for critique. Indeed I am not aware of any online community that I can really trust. Partly why I entered stock photography, I get professionally technical reviews and then the customers decide if the photo has value by voting with their wallet. This doesn't apply to all types of photography for sure.

Adding feedback to photos tends to result one 1 of several things, usually combined within a single thread.
1) Inexperienced begginers saying the photo is great because they can't do better themselves and don't know much about photography. No value add.
2) some kind of circle jerk communal applause. No value add.
3) some inexperienced outsider who knows nothing about photography or art sees some shallow DoF or B&W photo and immediately says it is amazing. No value add.
4) someone actually does provide a negative critique with constructive comments for improvement. The person is typically shot down for being negative or their post is just swamped in the the rest of the posts. Rarely the value add it should be.
5) web sized photos are published (for good reason), so no review of technical Image features can be examined. No analysis of sharpening techniques, noise reduction, focus accuracy, cannot test requisite DoF, image softness, etc. for most beginners they need #5 to be sorted before ever worrying about people stealing their photos. No value add.

The photo competition has a good grading system and review if people want feedback on their work. If everyone applied the same scheme to their critique then their would be a huge amount of value. But that takes time, a lot if it.

And then there is still the fact that post of the post your pictures is just to share with the community what you have been up to, not to receive analysis. The way the forum is setup is perfectly fine for this.

Maybe we should let people make a "Request for Feedback" thread where they post 2-3 of their best photos and experienced members can give a more thoughtful and detailed feedback and analysis, which will likely contain moderate critique instead of a circle jerk applause.

Personally, I don't find v.aue in any online community for critique. I use experienced friends that I trust, including professionals (you know, those people that make 100% of their income from photography). I have also learned to analyze my photos objectively and can safely conclude most of them suck, but at least I know why.

As to watermarks, nothing says amateur wannabe pro than some hideous watermark. Completely unneccessary, you can put a copyright notice in text under the photo if you won't but that doesn't change the legal ramifications. The great thing with digital documents is the copyright information can be placed inside the file header, jpegs have an entire IPCC data field where you can enter you name and copyright details.

Not advertising businesses is a rule that covers The entire OCUK. They do not want advertising anywhere, itis irrelevant that cuk does not offer photography services because it is a blanket rule. You can't advertise your web dev company nor your car cleaning service. This is pretty common for any company forum to ban bussiness advertising, I don't see why ocuk should be any different. Perhaps they could sell spots inthe banner so when you are in say the photo forum they will advertise photographers, some of which could be resident ocuk togs if they have paid the advertising fee.

Too much talk, the solution is simple. Stop suffocating this place with illogical moderating.

Put it back the way it was 5-7 years ago, it was fine then, a balanced mix of technical and photo sharing. What changed?

A moderator got heavy handed, took the competition away from the members and made it "illegal" for us to have our own completion, actually removed the judges and picked it themselves. The format was fine, ran successfully for about 4 years, it was at its peak when the powers that be got its hands to it. That to me was the end of it.

Then it happened again with the watermarks, I don't care about it as long as it is enforced across the board to everyone, but it isn't, plenty of people STILL do it with no ramifications. The moderating makes it dangerous to post a photo without they change the rules and apply it retrospectively and you get punished for it. Who's to say they say you can't show photos at all in the future, because it itself is an advertisement to selling that photo as a print? As for embedded info, you can edit that out in 3 clicks. Watermark makes it more a hassle. I posted for 2 years with the same watermark and it was fine. Countless Underboss, Dons and higher up Dons seen it, both here and GD and it was fine. Then it wasn't. Someone decided it was advertising. I also find it ironic that whenever there is a thread someone asks for a wedding photographer, I made it a point not to post in that thread and say what I do, people kindly have put my name forward but i know about the rule so never actually say "i do this, drop me an email". I have never done that. I see others saying they offer their services for the OP, some even asks if the OP thought about videotographer and offer that service. But the mods never clamp that on those threads.

As for TP, it's not fun there really, it has its own problems, too many people thinks they know everything and forces their opinion on others like gospel. One guy makes The Exception's support for Nikon seem lame! I actually prefer PoTN much more, the standards are a lot higher, people are more humble and polite.

Raymond Lin said:

The Exception's support for Nikon seem lame! I actually prefer PoTN much more, the standards are a lot higher, people are more humble and polite.

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Or your support for Canon. Focus on the art.

King Damager said:

Gear waving thread makes sense. I also feel for a spec me thread, we'd need more than one, otherwise it would descend into canon vs nikon vs pentax vs sony...

kd

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The problem is a begginer comes long and wants a DSLR, how does he know what thread to choose, or does he post in all of them filling up the board?

I think people have to accept that most of the ocuk forums is about asking for gear advice, be that computer, consoles, tvs, cars, boats, kitchen utensils, etc.
people asking for DSLR advice is basically th core of the ocuk photo subforum.
Tey aren't interesting per we, but it is about giving advice not what is interesting. Iersoanlly find all the wedding photos as boring as watching paint dry, just part of being in a photo forum really.

Raymond Lin said:

I see others saying they offer their services for the OP, some even asks if the OP thought about videotographer and offer that service. But the mods never clamp that on those threads.

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I don't remember seeing any RTMs from you.

Jokester said:

I don't remember seeing any RTMs from you.

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+1

However it says allot if no one is reporting these infractions. If people are not reporting it, they obviously don't want the rules enforced. If they don't want the rules enforced, they don't want the rule(s).

It would be interesting to know if traffic has declined at all. Personally I still click to this forum through habbit allot, although I do make a point of contributing content when I can.

Could the problem be that the forum is open gear?
I spend a lot of time over at PF, because we are all of the same mind there, it is friendly and it is specific to the brand I take photo's with.
Raymond likes a Canon based site - where do other people go?
One of the things I didn't like here is the canikon focus and fanboi's bashing other peoples gear - not everyone does it, there are some well thought out posts, but there are some who do it.

An Exception said:

+1

However it says allot if no one is reporting these infractions. If people are not reporting it, they obviously don't want the rules enforced. If they don't want the rules enforced, they don't want the rule(s).

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Other people do report things and they will be actioned if they have broken the rules.

edgedemon said:

One of the things I didn't like here is the canikon focus and fanboi's bashing other peoples gear - not everyone does it, there are some well thought out posts, but there are some who do it.

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This seems to have become a bigger problem recently and a lot of people have started complaining about it.