Volkswagen cheats emissions tests!

coolsurfer · 19 Sep 2015 at 15:58

German carmaker Volkswagen has been ordered by US regulators to recall half a million cars because of a device that disguises pollution levels.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34298259

Can we trust this car maker again?

ci_newman · 19 Sep 2015 at 16:19

Does anyone actually care, other than regulators?

Goksly · 19 Sep 2015 at 16:20

I think an £11b bill might make company's think twice... Massive costs. Not sure why it's so high I remember something similar happening before and it was hundreds of millions.

Destination · 19 Sep 2015 at 16:24

The cost is for the recall, there hasn't been a fine yet.
It'll cost them that amount to put it right.
Tiss a strange thing to attempt on such a massive scale.

-this cheating sensor in the exhaust system seem to be limited to US models, is that correct?
I didn't realise the US cared at all for emission testing with their big engine beasts

TheVoice · 19 Sep 2015 at 16:24

I wonder how VW's emissions compare to those of the domestic manufacturers and their massive engines?

muon · 19 Sep 2015 at 16:27

The US just has stupid regulations which has made diesel cars expensive to get into the country.

If it was so harmful I'm fairly certain other countries would have said something.

Stupid thing to do though by VW. You have to comply with the laws of the country.

TheVoice · 19 Sep 2015 at 16:30

muon said:
If it was so harmful I'm fairly certain other countries would have said something.

They have; us, for one.

[TW]Fox · 19 Sep 2015 at 16:35

TheVoice said:
I wonder how VW's emissions compare to those of the domestic manufacturers and their massive engines?

Within classes in which they compete engine sizes are about the same, as you'd expect. They don't do a Chevvy Malibu V8, most of them are 4 pots just like the equivalent Passat.

Even in the more upscale classes turbocharger 4 cylinder engines are very popular both in domestic and foreign brands.

You'd be amazed how big a thing fuel efficiency now is in the US.

muon · 19 Sep 2015 at 16:36

TheVoice said:
They have; us, for one.

We have an issue with recent VAG diesel cars? My eyes must be deceiving me out on the roads.

Caged · 19 Sep 2015 at 16:36

ci_newman said:
Does anyone actually care, other than regulators?

People who need to breathe air probably care. If there are regulations on emissions then manufacturers should absolutely have to comply with them. VWs problem is that it seems like the device was designed to deliberately cheat in emission tests, rather than just being a faulty part that sometimes causes higher emissions than the official figures. That combined with it being a foreign marque makes me think a nasty fine will be coming their way.

muon · 19 Sep 2015 at 16:47

Goksly said:
I think an £11b bill might make company's think twice... Massive costs. Not sure why it's so high I remember something similar happening before and it was hundreds of millions.

Full refunds I think.

$36k per car.

That's just the recall itself.

TheVoice · 19 Sep 2015 at 16:47

muon said:
We have an issue with recent VAG diesel cars? My eyes must be deceiving me out on the roads.

Ah sorry, your post seemed like you were talking about diesels in general.

muon · 19 Sep 2015 at 16:49

TheVoice said:
Ah sorry, your post seemed like you were talking about diesels in general.

Ah ok. No I was referring to the differing emissions targets.

Although tbh I don't like seeing the black soot coming off diesel cars. So maybe the US has it right (although this is related NOx).

[TW]Fox · 19 Sep 2015 at 16:52

muon said:
Ah ok. No I was referring to the differing emissions targets.

Although tbh I don't like seeing the black soot coming off diesel cars. So maybe the US has it right (although this is related NOx).

You won't see black soot coming off diesel cars equipped with a DPF - which is most diesels sold in the last 8 years.

Plenty of smokey diesels in the US too, followed a Jetta TDI only yesterday

Plus the entire truck fleet is diesel - the reason for a relative lack of diesels in the US is the low price of fuel, and despite what diesel fanboys say, economy is the driving force behind a diesel and when you can fill the tank in a quiet and refined petrol engined car for $45 why would you want a diesel?

muon · 19 Sep 2015 at 16:59

[TW]Fox;28584342 said:
You won't see black soot coming off diesel cars equipped with a DPF - which is most diesels sold in the last 8 years.

Really? I'll keep an eye out. I thought I did see newer cars leaving soot when accelerating from a standstill. Does the DPF have a maximum amount it can handle in any one time? I guess it's not so bad if it only happens under harsh acceleration.

Plenty of smokey diesels in the US too, followed a Jetta TDI only yesterday Plus the entire truck fleet is diesel - the reason for a relative lack of diesels in the US is the low price of fuel, and despite what diesel fanboys say, economy is the driving force behind a diesel and when you can fill the tank in a quiet and refined petrol engined car for $45 why would you want a diesel?

Whilst that's partly the explanation (difference in ¢/mile), but without more stringent emissions standards couldn't you argue that the mpg difference would be larger and hence have a larger difference in ¢/mile?

Presumably that is why VW have done this.

coolsurfer · 19 Sep 2015 at 16:59

ci_newman said:
Does anyone actually care, other than regulators?

"We" should care. Afterall it is our children and children's children who will suffer the consequences of environmental change.

muon · 19 Sep 2015 at 17:02

Acid rain is also a serious problem.

snowdog · 19 Sep 2015 at 17:02

Caged said:
People who need to breathe air probably care.

Yeah, because relatively these VW's are SO polluting compared to most Yank trucks ? :rolleyes:

And as if it makes a noticeable difference for the air quality.

VW took a gamble and got caught, nothing more nothing less.

The whole fuel economy of VAG cars is a scam anyhow, the Octy Greenline should do 3.2l/100km, well, I manage to do 5-6.5l/100km on average depending on my driving style. To do below 5 you can't even drive faster than 70mph.

[TW]Fox · 19 Sep 2015 at 17:03

muon said:
Really? I'll keep an eye out. I thought I did see newer cars leaving soot when accelerating from a standstill. Does the DPF have a maximum amount it can handle in any one time? I guess it's not so bad if it only happens under harsh acceleration.

You should never see smoke from a modern diesel unless it's been modified or is defective.

Whilst that's partly the explanation (difference in ¢/mile), but without more stringent emissions standards couldn't you argue that the mpg difference would be larger and hence have a larger difference in ¢/mile?

Presumably that is why VW have done this.

I don't know why we are focused on diesel - the vast majority of VW's in the USA are petrol. Looking at the list of affected cars I don't even think they offer the Beetle with a diesel.

muon · 19 Sep 2015 at 17:05

The defeat device is on diesel cars. The 500k cars refer to basically all the diesel cars they have sold.

http://www.theguardian.com/business...a-investigate-volkswagen-clean-air-violations

The EPA accused Volkswagen of using the device in 482,000 four-cyclinder Volkswagen and Audi diesel cars in the US since 2008. VW must recall all the cars, remove the defeat device and improve the cars’ NOx emissions, which creates smog and has been linked to increased asthma attacks and other respiratory illnesses.

edit:

Also the Guardian suggests the $18bn is actually the amount they can get as a fine. So my previous guess was wrong.

The EPA said Volkswagen could face other action and fines for the alleged breach of the Clean Air Act. The maximum fine for violations of the act is $37,500 per vehicle, which works out to a maximum possible fine as high as $18bn.