1.2L Puretech/wet belt issues

[Gammawolf]

So i've got a 4.8 year old car at 55k miles with a 1.2L puretech. It was only after I bought it I became aware of the infamous wetbelt system. I'm the second owner of the car having had it for about 1 year and a few months. Timing belt replacement is 6 years or 60k miles (although dealer actually put 64k miles on their ad). Car was ex motablity, so it should have been serviced for its first 3 years although there are no stamps to indicate that. I replaced the oil with manufacturer recommended, did all filters and general service 4 months ago.

Yesterday I was joining the motorway and got low oil pressure when getting to 4-5k rpm, the engine then refused to do much. Had to stop on the side of the slip, turn off and on again. After testing it seems this only comes up at high rpm. I can drive it normally with no errors as long as i keep rpms 3.5k ish and below. I have inspected the belt from the top and it is showing some cracking but couldn't see missing bits of belt. The underside was hard to see, i'm not sure if i'm imagining it but if i were to bet, i'd say it was shedding some bits as a week ago i put in some oil as it displayed low oil level and on the dip I saw some bits of black chunky bits. Low oil pressure at high rpm to me indicates either blockage with pickup tube (most likely given the infamity of wetbelts) or issue with the pump. I don't think its the sensor otherwise it would be displaying the issue all the time.

Here is my predicament, I do not know if the engine is getting enough oil even with the warning not trigger as i don't know what its threshold is. For personal reasons I cannot not use the car, which means i'll be putting miles on the engine while in this state and who knows how long its been partially blocked. Its still a guess since i can't confirm pickup tube is blocked, but how likely do you think the dealer/manufacturer will rectify it based on the infamous history of this engine/recalls/wetbelt garbage and the history of this particular car? As well as the fact that its seemingly "failed" (at least not a belt snap) before the recommended changing interval (which in itself has been a lowered revision from when the engine was initially released). I would have thought the change interval would be scoped to ensure these issues didn't happen? Clearly the wetbelt system is a design flaw, as they've now redesigned the engine with a chain.. It is easy for me to take off the oil tray and check/clean the pick tube but i don't want to destroy evidence as its booked in at a dealer for 2 weeks for "diagnoses". If theres no chance they'll do anything under a manufacturers warranty then i'd rather just drop the pan now, clear it out to hopefully get me by the next few weeks, save the diagnosis fee and book it in for a timing belt replacement. I'm just loathed to drive it for hundreds more miles when knowing its likely continuing to damage the engine (even if no faults show and i keep it low rpm)

 

[jpaul]

thought peugot were fairly generous with contributions, earlier thread V ... is there an electronic service record/stamps
but yes sounds a bit foolish to drive it if you've had an oil warning light you've never had before, and it's likely to jump a cog, and leave you stranded, & itself damaged

yes - doesn't sound too bad an outcome , but if they are admitting some responsibility what is the justification to just pay 50%

so your car had a chain, or a belt ?
(scanned 100+ page french forum thread on the topic, they should know, apparently 10k oil+air filter charges are key, and higher ethanol content in fuel kills belts faster)

 

[sx_turbo]

PSA group at one point were offering free replacements on engines with wet belt issues providing you could prove the service schedule was done at main dealers and on time, and I think only on engines that burnt unusually high quantities of oil.

But think this offer may have ended.

If I were you I wouldn't be using the car where possible and getting the belt replaced asap.

Also the sump cannot be removed on these engines without removing the gearbox (such a stupid design).

So it's going to cost a small fortune to fix it.

You are right it is most likely the belt breaking up and clogging the oil pickup.

This is all doom and gloom, but really needs a proper look at, and only real way to do that is removing the sump.

 

[HangTime]

My wife's old car had that engine, the belt was checked (as it was subject to a recall) and then less than six months later it went into limp mode while she was driving, loss of power and trashed the engine. Luckily she was on local roads at the time so was able to coast it into a parking spot. Could have been a genuine disaster if she was on the motorway. Basically my understanding was due to the nature of the belt being submerged they can't properly examine all of it without pulling everything apart, hence the 'check' was flawed, but I have no mechanical knowledge. I was able to argue that because it was caused by failure of a part subject to recall had been recently examined by a main Peugeot dealership and the next service wasn't due that Peugeot should pay for the new engine. I think the cost was about £5k in total. At the time it had done 68k miles in 5 years.

edit: in a way it's a shame because the 130 engine is not bad performance wise, but I suppose this the same can be said for the old Ford Ecoboost, sometimes these punchy little engines give good performance but end up being a timebomb.

 

[Gammawolf]

My wife's old car had that engine, the belt was checked (as it was subject to a recall) and then less than six months later it went into limp mode while she was driving, loss of power and trashed the engine. Luckily she was on local roads at the time so was able to coast it into a parking spot. Could have been a genuine disaster if she was on the motorway. Basically my understanding was due to the nature of the belt being submerged they can't properly examine all of it without pulling everything apart, hence the 'check' was flawed, but I have no mechanical knowledge. I was able to argue that because it was caused by failure of a part subject to recall had been recently examined by a main Peugeot dealership and the next service wasn't due that Peugeot should pay for the new engine. I think the cost was about £5k in total. At the time it had done 68k miles in 5 years.

edit: in a way it's a shame because the 130 engine is not bad performance wise, but I suppose this the same can be said for the old Ford Ecoboost, sometimes these punchy little engines give good performance but end up being a timebomb.

Did the belt actaully snap and trash the engine or they did some analysis on the wearing parts/oil delivery channels/decided and it was easier just to replace the engine?

Had a look with my endoscope and the belt itself isn't missing teeth as far as i can see but it sure does look to me like its been shedding stuff due to the uneven surface above the teeth

 

[HangTime]

It snapped, the vehicle was completely immobilised and the engine had to be replaced.

 

[sx_turbo]

Did the belt actaully snap and trash the engine or they did some analysis on the wearing parts/oil delivery channels/decided and it was easier just to replace the engine?

Had a look with my endoscope and the belt itself isn't missing teeth as far as i can see but it sure does look to me like its been shedding stuff due to the uneven surface above the teeth

The engine isn't trashed so it's obviously not lost teeth, but just because your engine is not seized does not mean the belt has not broken down.

your symptoms suggest the oil pickup pipe may be blocked, and is getting insufficient oil as the engine speed increases.

I've rebuilt one of these engines, though my brother's was rebuilt for excessive oil consumption and he had the turbo version, his fault was the oil control rings, they have a design flaw where the drillings are very fine and clog up with carbon, I modified the pistons by drilling 4 of the holes larger in the piston skirt and told him to half the oil change intervals to prevent it happening again (I digress)

His cambelt was only a year old at this point and the correct oil used (supposedly), when I removed it, it was all cracked between the teeth and on the back of the belt.

Having worked in the motor trade for a number of years, I am almost certain (and know it to be fact in many a garage) very few actually install the correct recommendation oil. Most these days have barrels of 5w30 c3 for diesels and 5w30 for everything else, only if the car is exotic (an M3 or such like) will they actually purchase the specified oil for that vehicle. Recently garages so now ensure the correct oil in ford 1.0 turbo engines due to the well known and publicised failures. PSA group have been able to remain largely silent with their issues in comparison I think that's possibly due to a larger percentage of PSA group owners get their cars serviced at main dealers than ford owners do.

You will need to do the following or pay someone to do the following

Remove gearbox
Remove sump
Remove cambelt
Remove oil pump
Clean oil strainer (might have to replace oil pump to be sure it's clean as the gauze has multi layers)

Rebuild in reverse with all new components. The cambelt I recommend is dayco as they are factory fit if you don't want to pay Peugeot prices. I'd also advise looking at the clutch as it's off and inspecting the dual mass flywheel for any play. LUK are factory fit for the clutch and flywheel (surprisingly not valeo).

In theory the oil filter should have collected any particles that made it past the oil pump and strainer, so you will need to replace the filter also (purflux are factory fit on oil filters for these)

New high quality engine oil (total quartz ineo first 0w30 I highly recommend and is factory fill) of the correct specification

Your issue is common across the board PSA group of companies

Here is just 1 of many posts of symptoms such as yours.

https://www.peugeotforums.com/threads/low-oil-pressure-warning.366022/

I may well be wrong, but the balance of probability suggests otherwise.

 

[gc123]

ok flame after but if its running and no warning lights i might be sending it to we buy anycar if the price was even remotely livable with.

 

[BUDFORCE]

Having worked in the motor trade for a number of years, I am almost certain (and know it to be fact in many a garage) very few actually install the correct recommendation oil.

Yup I'll agree with this.

Many years ago I used to get the Mrs ford fiesta Mk7 serviced at a garage and used to have to top off the oil over the course of the year, nothing crazy maybe 500ml over a year, maybe not even that but still.

Anyway I started doing it myself and got the oil with that ford specification, and now I don't need to top it off at all.

 

[gc123]

Having worked in the motor trade for a number of years, I am almost certain (and know it to be fact in many a garage) very few actually install the correct recommendation oil. Most these days have barrels of 5w30 c3 for diesels and 5w30 for

had this with a mate he bought his c max second hand from ford main dealer, they serviced it while he waited and he noted the oil came from a drum in the workshop.
he challenged the manager about whether the oil was right and was told we use it as its recomended by ford. he then got his handbook out of the car and showed the manager the specification 0/30 oil in the book and the fact that the drum was showing 5 /30. i know its not much difference but the manager had to accept he was wrong and ordered the correct oil from the parts department and another new filter.

 

[Gammawolf]

Sadly, I don't know what was done for the first 3 years of this cars life. I've only ever used the recommend 0w30 PSA approved one for my engine model..

In anycase I have a deadline of Monday because my inlaws are actaully staying over from Japan and we need the car to go to the airport/Rome so i don't have the luxury to do the full works like oil pump - i did however manage to get a OEM timing belt kit in time with the dayco belt. After taking the pan off, it's the typical wetbelt issues as expected. New belt is in and its ready to button up - i just forgot to buy a new torque wrench today as my one doesn't go low enough for the tensioner/idler.. before any eagle eye'd person asks, yes i am replacing the oil filter

Spoiler: Large pictures

 

[Rilot]

Good job. Was it difficult?

 

[Gammawolf]

On this engine i'd class it as advanced DIY - as always access is the main killer! If i had a pit or lift life would be bliss. You don't need the full head cover off that would exposes the cams (unless you want to inspect them). Theres a partial plastic cover that comes off with a few pipes to remove and the spark coils. I didn't buy the newest locking kit so had to take off the vaccum pump to lock that cam.

This video pretty much covers the newest variants on the engine but with the magic of editing and a free standing engine they make it look a little easier than it is!

TUTORIAL: How to replace the timing belt on the 1.2L Puretech engine

Find out how to replace the timing belt on the Puretech 1.2 Turbo engine versions 6.2 and 6.3 Step by step, follow our SNR experts' recommendations step by s...

youtu.be

 

[Rilot]

Doesn't look too bad TBH. Oh what I wouldn't give for a two-post lift.

 

[jaybee]

I was looking at cars with this engine and then decided due to this issue...just nope. CBA with it. Same with the Ford ecoboost engines. We went with a Clio in the end with the 0.9 tce petrol turbo. Has a chain.

I've seen some of those YouTube videos as to what's involved...fair play if you take it on.

 

[gc123]

i applaude you for taking the job on, would still have worries about low pressure problems with the oil strainer being partially blocked, but if your happy crack on, well done.

 

[jpaul]

impressive - how long did it take 10 hours ? inside in garage with car on ramps ?

 

[Gammawolf]

Just an update, got back from Italy this morning with the inlaws after driving it to Manchester and back (5 adults, 2 kids with 3 checked in luggage’s on a roof rack! Sufficed to say that 1.2L was doing work shifting that over the Pennines). This was the main reason I was in a rush to get it into a better state as I didn’t really have any alternatives for airport transport or anyone else fixing it with a few days’ notice. I can't feel it functioning any diffrent besides no more loss of oil pressure at high RPM but going to be doing more checks/replacing just to be sure when i have the luxury of more time/planning. Keeping an eye on oil consumption as well as it was using a fair bit before (but within PSAs stated tolerances). The engine is notorious for using oil though so i don't know if it'll actually improve or not.

Not sure if related to the belt wear but the belt tensioner on the factory fit was over tensioned, by about 30 degrees past the mark.

impressive - how long did it take 10 hours ? inside in garage with car on ramps ?

Thats about right for time I spent on it - correct with garage and car being on ramps, also I have all hand tools. Now that I know what I'm doing I could probably get that down to nearly half that on a reattempt and a few hours if you had garage level lifts/access/tools. Its much easier if you can take off the front wheel for access to the side through the arch, but thats a bit hard when you're using ramps . The scariest part for me was doing the crankshaft gear bolt. That one wants 50NM and then 180 degrees..

 

[bainbridge]

Just an update, got back from Italy this morning with the inlaws after driving it to Manchester and back (5 adults, 2 kids with 3 checked in luggage’s on a roof rack! Sufficed to say that 1.2L was doing work shifting that over the Pennines). This was the main reason I was in a rush to get it into a better state as I didn’t really have any alternatives for airport transport or anyone else fixing it with a few days’ notice. I can't feel it functioning any diffrent besides no more loss of oil pressure at high RPM but going to be doing more checks/replacing just to be sure when i have the luxury of more time/planning. Keeping an eye on oil consumption as well as it was using a fair bit before (but within PSAs stated tolerances). The engine is notorious for using oil though so i don't know if it'll actually improve or not.

Not sure if related to the belt wear but the belt tensioner on the factory fit was over tensioned, by about 30 degrees past the mark.


Thats about right for time I spent on it - correct with garage and car being on ramps, also I have all hand tools. Now that I know what I'm doing I could probably get that down to nearly half that on a reattempt and a few hours if you had garage level lifts/access/tools. Its much easier if you can take off the front wheel for access to the side through the arch, but thats a bit hard when you're using ramps . The scariest part for me was doing the crankshaft gear bolt. That one wants 50NM and then 180 degrees..

Well done for taking this job on and getting it done.

 

[sx_turbo]

Well done for taking this job on and getting it done.

Second this.

I can vOuch for the oil consumption issues, it seems to be a trait of modern engines.

The reason is due to the oil scraper ring (that's supposed to lubricate the cylinder walls) the holes within the ring are tiny, probably around 1mm in diameter, due to the service intervals and the way the engines are used with little cool down time after a run, the oil carbons up blocking these holes. The oil then passes over the top of the scraper ring leading to excessive oil consumption.

At one point Citroen were doing a cost price exchange or a free exchange or something if the engine had high levels of consumption (I think 1 litre or more in 500 miles or something to that effect) if the engine was less than 7 years old, was a couple of years ago I looked at it with my brother's car so I may be a bit hazy with sthe particulars.

Anyway as stated I re-ringed his engine and hones the bores, also told him to half the oil service intervals and change it every 6 months regardless of mileage, been fine for 2 years now.

Key is the service schedule being reduced, and allowing the engine to cool down after a run, just 30 seconds to a minute when you pull up makes the world of difference.

However before going down that route check the turbo seals havnt failed, and the blow by.