13700KF too hot? Dodgy CPU or Dodgy Cooler?

snarloas1982 · 1 Feb 2023 at 20:37

JollyJamma said:
No idea.

https://www.hardwaretimes.com/amd-r...x7-without-affecting-lifespan-or-reliability/ my gaming never gets near 70...or 95 under full load. Not sure the 2ccd theory is correct

Darujhistan · 1 Feb 2023 at 20:39

Very disapointing to see of these Intel chips and AM5 running bonkers hot, I don't care if they're "designed" to operate that way either, it's very poor as far as I am concerned. I'll stick with my 5700x that never goes over 70.

snarloas1982 · 1 Feb 2023 at 20:59

Motherboard manufacturers must be part of the blame here on the Intel side. Almost anyone can get the same performance and have it running cooler with a few bios settings

JollyJamma · 2 Feb 2023 at 06:27

snarloas1982 said:
https://www.hardwaretimes.com/amd-r...x7-without-affecting-lifespan-or-reliability/ my gaming never gets near 70...or 95 under full load. Not sure the 2ccd theory is correct

What? Lots of cores run at the ragged edge of performance being difficult to cool is not the same as the die area.

Both Intel and AMD are running their silicon at almost full speed with lots of cores, AMD just takes a slightly different approach with the infinity fabric.

This allows them to reduce cost and complexity. Intel mocked them for it in the past claiming that the CPUs were “glued” but even Intel is having to start to look at chiplet design.

Intels more established fabrication method just allows for bigger single and more dense design but it can make it more difficult to cool.

Additional: Also to counter your argument, here’s a comment in a review

When Zen 4 CPUs arrived we saw quite a few comments along the lines of, "Why did Intel get so much flack for high temperatures? Because when AMD does it, it's just okay whatever 95c is fine."

The reason for this was simple, Zen 4 CPUs didn't suffer from thermal throttling and power consumption wasn't insane and this should really be the focus, not operating temperatures.

Intel Core i9-13900K Review: Hot and Hungry

Hot of the heels of AMD's Zen 4 series launch, here comes Intel with their highly anticipated 13th-gen Core series, codenamed Raptor Lake. Today we're reviewing the...

www.techspot.com

Edit: added review notes

snarloas1982 · 2 Feb 2023 at 07:49

JollyJamma said:
What? Lots of cores run at the ragged edge of performance being difficult to cool is not the same as the die area.

Both Intel and AMD are running their silicon at almost full speed with lots of cores, AMD just takes a slightly different approach with the infinity fabric.

This allows them to reduce cost and complexity. Intel mocked them for it in the past claiming that the CPUs were “glued” but even Intel is having to start to look at chiplet design.

Intels more established fabrication method just allows for bigger single and more dense design but it can make it more difficult to cool.

Additional: Also to counter your argument, here’s a comment in a review

Intel Core i9-13900K Review: Hot and Hungry

Hot of the heels of AMD's Zen 4 series launch, here comes Intel with their highly anticipated 13th-gen Core series, codenamed Raptor Lake. Today we're reviewing the...

www.techspot.com

Edit: added review notes

At auto volts intel would get hotter under full load. At Idle and gaming where Intel is lower. As you can see from posts above its very easy to make them run cooler and the amd counterparts and still retain the performance.

JollyJamma · 2 Feb 2023 at 08:06

snarloas1982 said:
At auto volts intel would get hotter under full load. At Idle and gaming where Intel is lower. As you can see from posts above its very easy to make them run cooler and the amd counterparts and still retain the performance.

That is a point but I’d argue that you could do the same for AMD and retain almost all of the performance.

I’d also wager that most users wouldn’t be comfortable volt modding their CPUs.

AMDs AM5 CPUs are more efficient than Intels 13th gen. That’s not subjective or based on which motherboard or settings you use, it’s just fact.

They may not be as fast but they get very close and the AM5 platform is a compelling argument given that it will be supported for a few years to come.

Now add the fact that they announced the X3D versions of their AM5 CPUs and you have a very good upgrade path, even for the price.

snarloas1982 · 2 Feb 2023 at 08:27

JollyJamma said:
That is a point but I’d argue that you could do the same for AMD and retain almost all of the performance.

I’d also wager that most users wouldn’t be comfortable volt modding their CPUs.

AMDs AM5 CPUs are more efficient than Intels 13th gen. That’s not subjective or based on which motherboard or settings you use, it’s just fact.

They may not be as fast but they get very close and the AM5 platform is a compelling argument given that it will be supported for a few years to come.

Now add the fact that they announced the X3D versions of their AM5 CPUs and you have a very good upgrade path, even for the price.

Both have pros and cons. You are going a little of topic with cooling here. Out of the box chip and mb voltages are nuts. Proved above with stock speeds it's very easy to thermally cool.

JollyJamma · 2 Feb 2023 at 08:39

snarloas1982 said:
Both have pros and cons. You are going a little of topic with cooling here. Out of the box chip and mb voltages are nuts. Proved above with stock speeds it's very easy to thermally cool.

I agree that it’s not unreasonably difficult to cool Intel 13th gen but certain considerations need to be taken into account.

A lot of people on this forum are ok with researching the best solution to a high end Intel CPU but it can’t be taken as a given.

I am other forums where the average use is terrified of tech and considers opening a computer chassis is a terrifying prospect let alone which AIO to use.

ZXSpectrum · 2 Feb 2023 at 10:38

These CPUs run bloody hot but according to Intel its how they work and doesn't reduce the reliability or longevity. I have recently done a load of testing running this CPU on a NH-U14S, NH-D15 and a 360mm AIO. On all of these no matter what you do regarding cooling the performance differs very little and that is a direct comparison with the NH-U14S slightly throttling and the 360mm AIO running fans at max to get a few degrees cooler only made about 1% performance drop if that.

I have found that on some Asus boards the LLC is a bit to aggressive on AUTO which is LVL3 and reducing the LLC manually to LVL1 sorts the issue. Other Asus boards need negative 0.0750v offset to get the temps sitting about 95 degrees under Cinebench R23 Throttling test/Aida64 but the performance is almost identical to the 360mm AIO.

These CPUs left on Auto, from what i can see, will actually draw as much power as the 13900K even with less cores and lower boost due to the higher base clock causing these higher temps.

These new K SKUs need a fair bit of research for the correct cooling/settings if they are being built by an end user. If they don't have the knowledge or experience to do this then the choices really are get someone else to build it or go for a Non-K SKU which get about 85% of the performance but don't have to deal with these issues.

Its not really something i agree with from a builder perspective but unfortunately there isn't much choice which are pushed as far as the silicon can go.

B1gdeano · 3 Feb 2023 at 00:10

Well here's the latest

New case and cooler arrived today, so spent the evening transfering the gubbins from the old case to the new and getting it all built how I wanted it.

The outcome? A resounding success! It was late and I was tired so haven't messed with any bios settings, it's as it was before with just multi core enhancement turned off, -0.120 undervolt LLC3. I managed to do 5 back to back cine23 runs and never once got over 70c! In fact 70 was a peak, it ran between 68/69c and the cooler wasn't even 100% speed. Idle at 29 to 30 in ambient 20.

So here it was my cooler and possibly case, but I'm going 90% cooler.

Tomorrow I'm gonna play and see what I can get out of it performance wise now I can control it's heat. Should be able to do decent OC on it now.

snarloas1982 · 3 Feb 2023 at 04:22

B1gdeano said:
Well here's the latest

New case and cooler arrived today, so spent the evening transfering the gubbins from the old case to the new and getting it all built how I wanted it.

The outcome? A resounding success! It was late and I was tired so haven't messed with any bios settings, it's as it was before with just multi core enhancement turned off, -0.120 undervolt LLC3. I managed to do 5 back to back cine23 runs and never once got over 70c! In fact 70 was a peak, it ran between 68/69c and the cooler wasn't even 100% speed. Idle at 29 to 30 in ambient 20.

So here it was my cooler and possibly case, but I'm going 90% cooler.

Tomorrow I'm gonna play and see what I can get out of it performance wise now I can control it's heat. Should be able to do decent OC on it now.

Grand job, get the load lines sorted and you can get far more out of the chip. Not to hard to sort in the end.

B1gdeano · 3 Feb 2023 at 13:23

snarloas1982 said:
Grand job, get the load lines sorted and you can get far more out of the chip. Not to hard to sort in the end.

Yeah glad it's got a line under it now. Just had to throw some more money at it first lol.

Don't know what was up with the other cooler. Yeah it's smaller but should have performed better. Almost like the coldplate wasnt mating properly or pump not running properly

Will spend some time reading up on these ACDC load lines. All new to me

snarloas1982 · 3 Feb 2023 at 16:40

Your settings required might be different at LLC3, i use LLC 4. DC_LL 1.02 AC_LL 0.16. I think your DC would be different at LLC3... Not sure. Ac_ll maybe start around 0.2, 0.19 , 0.18 etc.
Not sure how different the settings between the i7 and i9 are but someone will come along and help.

Find your lowest volts and OC per core if you wish. A mild OC does me, plenty fast enough for what i do. Temps lower means lower fan noise in the end

Bencher · 9 Feb 2023 at 09:05

JollyJamma said:
AMDs AM5 CPUs are more efficient than Intels 13th gen. That’s not subjective or based on which motherboard or settings you use, it’s just fact.

Thats definitely not a fact. Its anything but a fact. It depends on which cpus specifically you are talking about, what workloads you test them on and at what wattages. In genetal, at similar power limits (let's say 220 watts), a 7950x is indeed more efficient than a 13900k in all core heavy workloads, but not by much. 10 to 15% roundabout. On the other had in mixed workloads like photoshop, autocad, premiere or just browsing the web, every intel cpu is much much more efficient than any zen 4 cpu. Games is a wash.

Now of course if you dont power limit an intel cpu and leave it to mobo defaults that sometimes to up to 350w yeah, they are not efficient, what a surprise. But in general they are also much easier to cool. Ive cooled a 13900k at 330 watts with a small air cooler (U12a), a 7950x at those wattages would go up in flames.