£15k - looking either to get a 530D or E270CDi...advice please

[5tephen]

Ok, at the minute I own a 1994 Merc C250D which has 270,000 miles on it which was previously my dad's and when he went to change, I took it from him since no-one else would have taken it. It's driving like a dream - never anything wrong mechanically, just had a few troubles with the electronic fuel sensors a year or two ago, everything else has been replaced in good time. I've been holding off changing it until I have some other good use for it - most likely giving it to my brother.

So I'm now after another good but potentially long-lasting car, one that will give me at least 50,000 miles with a minimum of grief. As per the subject I'd spend £15k tops, and I'm deciding between a 530D and an E270CDi. At this price point I'm probably looking at a car with anything from 60k - 90k miles. My dad bought an E39 530D after giving me the C-class but he hated it because of the solid suspension (the C-class is pretty much a sofa in comparison), and sold it 4 months later. I loved it on the other hand, which is why I'd like one.

On the other hand, what is the E-class like? The re-vamped one hasn't been around long enough, so what would a, say, 2003 model be like in terms of build quality and general day-to-day driving? I've read so much about Mercedes' poor quality control lately, and my dad's current car (a 2001 c-class) is a lump of plastic compared to the older model. (It's running OK atm though). As I say, I don't want a car that will give me a lot of grief.

I've read a lot about the 530D from these forums but the E-class obviously isn't as popular among you all. What would you advise? Also, I have been told by a car dealer who I know very well that the E-class is bigger than the 5 series; I thought this was the other way around?

 

[[TW]Fox]

The previous generation E Class is nowhere near as good as the E39 5 Series - it was introduced a year before it and put soundly in the shade by the E39, a car they could not match throughout its production life. So, if its 96-03 E Class or E39 5 Series, the choice is clear - the E39 is the better car in virtually every way possible.

As for the newer model - well, it's much improved but although they are the same class they are quite different cars. The E Class is more suited for wafting down the Motorway, and obviously has a nicer, more modern interior, but it can't touch the E39 for driver appeal.

Not sure which is bigger but they are both so similar in size it makes little difference. The E39 is fundamentally reliable but the 530d is known for turbo faliure, although this is something which plagues virtually all modern commonrail turbodiesels including the E270 CDI.

£15k should get you an absolutely fantastic 2002-2003 530d Sport with Comms Pack and 18 inch wheels.

 

[Sagalout]

If you're looking at a modern Mercedes you need to really be looking at 2004 onwards. 1999 to 2003 saw the worst of the build quality issues, but they have apparently been very much back on track since 2004. I was looking at a similar choice 6 months ago - in the end I couldnt get either due to them not fitting in the Garage! From the research I did I found BMWs seemed to age better (I was looking at 2002 cars initially). In fact I was shocked that my '97 C class was in much better condition that pretty much every 2002/2003 mercedes car I came across. 2004 cars were out of my budget so I ended up going for a 12 month old Focus as a complete change.

As Fox says though, very different drives, so take one of each for a test drive and guy which you prefer.

 

[5tephen]

Thanks for the quick reply Fox, I knew you'd be onto this in no time
I don't know what the interior is like in the E-class but I loved the interior on my dad's E39, the aluminium trim etc. It felt very expensive indeed.
What aggravates a turbo failure? Is there anything you can do to avoid it, e.g. in driving style or in servicing? If not, at what mileage would this be a likelihood at?
Point taken regarding the E-class. Although I do like the look of some sports models I've seen, there's a black Brabus D4 which I always see around home which is an E-class, and is one of the most stunning cars I've ever seen. If I was to consider an E-class it would have to be a sports model because the normal type looks very fat and old-man-ish.

I'm most likely going to go with the 5-series (or a 5-class as my friend thinks they're called ), partly because at the minute I'd be looking for a Merc that is in the bad quality year range as you say, Sagalout. And yes I was reading your thread a short while ago
I drove the 530D before and do have to say it's a lot more effort to drive than my C250, it must be the size of the wheels or something because it's got the turning circle of a bus. (This is why I was asking about the size comparison between the two). I can navigate my driveway and tight parking spaces with the C250 with incredible ease, and in general driving you really can just sit back and switch off. I love it, which is why I'm still in the notion of going for a Merc. But when I was talking to the car dealer, he explained that at 22 I just shouldn't even be considering a Merc - the 530D would be much more suitable. As I say I drove the 530D a few times and I loved it too, but didn't really get to feel how it would suit as my full-time car.

Was just taking a look on the AutoTrader site and here's an example of a 530 that probably has swayed me: 2003 BMW 530D Sport Auto, £14,750: ex BMW demonstrater car, auto tip, not long out of England, Black with full Black leather and aluminium trim, 96,000 miles with full BMWSH, MOTd and taxed, heatedseats, traffic master, sat/nav, TV, MFSW, 6 CD changer, M5 alloys. (Out of England is mentioned because I'm based in Northern Ireland). What is the 'traffic master' out of interest?

 

[[TW]Fox]

At 22 I wouldnt even be considering the Merc, sounds like we are the same age and I absolutely love my 530 Sport

Traffic Master tells you about traffic jams - press the button and a map comes up on the Satnav screen. It's rather crude, the graphics are not as nice as the BMW nav and it feels a bit like a bolt-on feature. It also incurs a monthly subscription. It's standard on all Comms Pack fitted E39's.

The problem with 530d Sport Auto's is that they are *the* car to have in the E39 range as a complete package. This means they can be VERY expensive - at £15,000 it's double what I paid for my Dec 01 530i Sport Manual and that 530d isn't exactly low mileage.

They don't really do a Sports model E Class

 

[5tephen]

Where I'm based I don't think I'll be needing on-demand feeds of traffic jams since I'm usually on the same roads most of the time. And anyway, it's probably like all other car and GPS related software...it doesn't work in Northern Ireland

I wouldn't be going for the particular car I mentioned there, 96k miles is very steep, and the dealer is probably trying to get the leg in. I should be able to get something in the ~60 - 70k mile range if I look about enough. Thankfully the dealer I would be getting it through is a good customer of mine so I'll be able to get it at trade price + not-a-lot-more

As a separate question - I'm considering buying a 2003 E39 when that was the year the new model came out. A few of those are starting to show up with a lot of miles on them, albeit at a price premium of ~£2k. (a) I'm not spending any more than what I've stated, and (b) I'm quite keen on not getting too new/flashy a car because I'm wary of what customers/potential customers might think, and there's some neighbours who I think don't like seeing others doing well. (Not having this car fiddled with & keyed as well). But above all this, how much of a step up is the new model, is there any point in waiting a few months to see what they can be had for pricewise?

 

[Tesla]

Back in Januray I was on holiday in France with some fellow Ocuk'ers.

Our taxi was a diesel e-class. Unsure of the engine size but we have a good poke about the car and chat about it.

The dash layout was great and seemed well designed.

The materials and interior build quality were very poor though, especially considering this is a Mercedes.

There was terrible wind noise from around my door in the back and the trim was quite plasticy and didn't feel expensive at all. Unlike the E39 or to be honest my Mk2 Mondeo felt better made inside.

Mechanically the car was faultless. The engine was so refined and held >100mph speeds no problem.

Aesthetically they are no so bad. They are an old design and have aged but not as bad as some other cars of similar design era.

Based on this experience in one I would not even consider buying one for £5k let alone 3x that amount.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Where I'm based I don't think I'll be needing on-demand feeds of traffic jams since I'm usually on the same roads most of the time. And anyway, it's probably like all other car and GPS related software...it doesn't work in Northern Ireland

I wouldn't be going for the particular car I mentioned there, 96k miles is very steep, and the dealer is probably trying to get the leg in. I should be able to get something in the ~60 - 70k mile range if I look about enough. Thankfully the dealer I would be getting it through is a good customer of mine so I'll be able to get it at trade price + not-a-lot-more

As a separate question - I'm considering buying a 2003 E39 when that was the year the new model came out. A few of those are starting to show up with a lot of miles on them, albeit at a price premium of ~£2k. (a) I'm not spending any more than what I've stated, and (b) I'm quite keen on not getting too new/flashy a car because I'm wary of what customers/potential customers might think, and there's some neighbours who I think don't like seeing others doing well. (Not having this car fiddled with & keyed as well). But above all this, how much of a step up is the new model, is there any point in waiting a few months to see what they can be had for pricewise?

There was a very interesting article in Autocar about a week ago - 2 pages on the E39 530i Sport. There were several key quotes I'll type out for you which may aid your decision between mint E39 and ropey E60...

'This car was good good that rivals simply gave up'

This five your old BMW 5 Series shows once and for all that new doesn't neccesarily mean better.

Progress is the process by which something improves chronologically. As time moves on, it becomes possible to move adjectives describing an object from their original meaning into the comparative. The word good becomes better. Fast changes into faster. Compared to the car it just replaced, most new models can any single dynamic or physical attribute and prefix it with the word 'better'. We don't just expect progress these days, we expect it has become part of the modern engineering methodology.

If such notions of motoring progress comfort you in these times of change, may I suggest you do not take the time to go and drive an E39 BMW 5 Series.

This 2002 car takes thjose assumptions of progress, opens a large bin, and calmly disposes of them. Prior to driving this example, I had been using a nearly new 535d Sport for a couple of days, and putting aside the new models remarkable performance, it was mostly inferior to this car.

How can that be? Well the good news is that BMW clearly spent more time, money and effort assembling the E39. It may have covered twice the mileage [of the 535d], but this car does not have a single interior squeek.

Belonging to a generation of BMW's that were so much better than the opposition that many so called rivals simple gave up means that a good E39 still has the best exec saloon chassis ever invented for UK roads. The balance it strikes between dynamic comepetence and sheer comfort was a milestone

So, there we go. I've driven an E60 - it was nice. But it didnt make me ache to own one like the E39 did when I first drove one.

I'm quite keen on not getting too new/flashy a car because I'm wary of what customers/potential customers might think, and there's some neighbours who I think don't like seeing others doing well.

Be careful, a decent facelift Sport E39, in good condition still looks flash enough to pick up comments from people.

 

[Tesla]

Do you have a scanner Fox? Wouldn't mind reading that article.

 

[5tephen]

Ok well I've still been on the lookout since this thread started, and I've seen a couple of stunners that have just sold too quick otherwise I would have went and bought them. But I've got another offer coming up that may be too good to refuse because of the price:
Nov 2004 E60 530D SE, 60k miles, some sort of blue colour, bluetooth phone kit, xenon headlights that go round corners (is there a name for that?), sports suspension, 18" alloys (they chose these rather than 19" for better comfort), cream leather, other niceties as you'd expect. Company car and anything that was required at service was put in, full service history etc and it's my cousin who I know well.

I can get it for £15,500 which I was a bit hesitant at at first because my budget was going downwards when I saw that many E39 models were going for around the £12k - 13k mark here. Plus, it's an SE and not a sport, and it's blue whereas I love silver. But it's the newer model and the same spec is going for around £18k here.

I don't really like the shape of the E60 compared to the E39, and it doesn't look as sporty, but at the same time it's the newer model, it's 240bhp (so I'm told) compared to the older's 190bhp (so I'm told), and it's an excellent spec overall. Surely the newer one can't be worse construction-wise than the previous model? Give me your thoughts.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Personally, no. I would not move to an E60 from my E39 and thats after driving an E60 530d Sport.

I would sooner spend £10k on an E39 Sport than E15k on an E60 SE. All the improvements over the E39 on the E60 I felt were simply electronics. Things like I-Drive, more advanced DSC, etc etc. The fundamentals were the same, or in some cases, marginally inferior. The build is good but not quite as good, the styling is very awkward indeed - an E60 only really works from the right angle and only as a Sport.

SE BMW's are nice but.. just not as nice as a good Sport. The engine in the 530d E60 is a 231bhp unit compared with 193bhp from the E39 facelift 530d.

How many miles a year do you do, out of interest?

 

[Tesla]

I was a bit hesitant at at first because my budget was going downwards

it's an SE and not a sport

it's blue whereas I love silver.

I don't really like the shape of the E60 compared to the E39

it doesn't look as sporty

So why do you wanna buy this one again?

 

[5tephen]

Tesla, don't break my message up like that, I was just posting my thoughts at that time and didn't think they were as negative as that
It's mainly because of the price I'm getting it at. £15,500 (maybe a few hundred less) whereas there's a few similar models of that spec & mileage (and often lower spec) for £18,500 or a bit more. I've been told the price is too good to miss (not that I had to be told!), and to be fair - my priorities should be price, performance and overall spec as it's what I'll be using inside the car that counts.

This one is faster, it has sports suspension and 18" wheels which effectively gives it the same performance as an E39 sport, right? Also, this active steering seems to be a big thing - am I right in saying this isn't part of the older model? Seems particularly useful when at low speeds, making the car easier to turn, which would be handy although I don't expect it to still be anywhere near as easy to turn as my current C-class.
I'm going to email my cousin tomorrow and get a full spec of the car emailed to me. I started forgetting things after he mentioned things like heated+massaging seats, bluetooth phone kit, xenon lights, sports susp. etc.

Regarding colour - he says it's some sort of blue, and judging by this page on E60.net, the only blue seems to be 'Mystic Blue Metallic' which I don't think I've seen before, but if it's that colour then I'd definitely not say no Saw a Topaz Blue E39 530D but the colour turned me off it altogether even though the price + spec were good.

Fox - I've only noted my miles since August 06 but from that I would go for about 12k miles a year. Not a lot of miles to be putting on a car that would handle 4 times that per year easily I guess. I put that down to: a) so much of my work is done remotely now, and b) I stay at my parents' house one or two days a week because some of my customers are much closer to their place than mine, so there's a day or two per week with v. little miles. The other thing - this car has done no more than 5,000 miles in the last 9 months because it's been sitting in parking spaces around Dublin for nearly all that time. So the 60k miles were put on it in 1.5 years

So far I'm talking about a car I haven't seen or driven yet so who knows. Fox - you are right in what you say and I'm torn exactly 1/2 way between the two options I currently have. I'll have a much better idea in the next 7 days of what I'm going to do.

 

[jamoor]

At 22 I wouldnt even be considering the Merc, sounds like we are the same age and I absolutely love my 530 Sport

Traffic Master tells you about traffic jams - press the button and a map comes up on the Satnav screen. It's rather crude, the graphics are not as nice as the BMW nav and it feels a bit like a bolt-on feature. It also incurs a monthly subscription. It's standard on all Comms Pack fitted E39's.

The problem with 530d Sport Auto's is that they are *the* car to have in the E39 range as a complete package. This means they can be VERY expensive - at £15,000 it's double what I paid for my Dec 01 530i Sport Manual and that 530d isn't exactly low mileage.

They don't really do a Sports model E Class

its worth noting that the trafficmaster is totally useless now, it has been replaced by TMC which lives on your cds. The nav cd will have TMC codes, and you can use that to get traffic data, and it's free.

 

[[TW]Fox]

If you don't do big miles, why 530d? A 530d commands a premium of up to £4000 over the equivilent 530i, and the 530i is faster than both the E39 and the E60 530d's.

Topaz Blue is an excellent colour, one of the very best on any E39, whereas Mystic Blue is a tad close to dull dark 'doom blue' for my liking.

Performance wise all SE's are the same as Sports anyway, but the Sport just feels so much nicer - it's the little things that really make the car special, although at least that SE has Sport Suspension. Active Steering is an absolute nuisance and was comprehensively slated when it was launched. As a result, not many cars have it.

 

[5tephen]

I don't want a petrol and it's never really featured in the equation, and I don't know what work will be lined up in the next say 6 months or 1 year that may involve a lot more travelling. Trying to think ahead in that respect, 12k is not a lot of miles for that car but imho would still be enough miles to make me notice the difference over a year of fuelling. Plus, I'm looking into getting a car that will last me at least 5 years, which aside from fuelling costs, is why I'm really taking my time over this and making sure I make the right choice in the end.

Fox - colours are down to personal opinion as I'm sure you will agree. I don't really like the E39 in any colour other than silver as I think it in silver looks more modern or stand-outish. I can't explain it really, but especially the darker colours seem to hide the nicer shaping of the spoilers/bumpers/general curvature of the body. No point in me trying to justify colour choice though because no two opinions are the same

So active steering is an option...will check to see if it's included in this car.
The thing is, for a couple of grand more I'm getting a newer model and because of who I'm getting it from, I'm getting an absolute shedload of extras that many new cars don't even come with, and as I've said would push the car to £19k easily. Been talking to 2 or 3 knowledgeable people in the last couple of days and everything seems to be steering me in the direction of the newer one. The other big thing people mention about is the fact that I know who's had it from new and that it's been well looked after and kept right, and been driven sensibly. I won't be guaranteed that when buying any other car (no matter the model) from a random car dealer or private seller.

 

[Firestar_3x]

Back in Januray I was on holiday in France with some fellow Ocuk'ers.

Our taxi was a diesel e-class. Unsure of the engine size but we have a good poke about the car and chat about it.

The dash layout was great and seemed well designed.

The materials and interior build quality were very poor though, especially considering this is a Mercedes.

There was terrible wind noise from around my door in the back and the trim was quite plasticy and didn't feel expensive at all. Unlike the E39 or to be honest my Mk2 Mondeo felt better made inside.

Mechanically the car was faultless. The engine was so refined and held >100mph speeds no problem.

Aesthetically they are no so bad. They are an old design and have aged but not as bad as some other cars of similar design era.

Based on this experience in one I would not even consider buying one for £5k let alone 3x that amount.

Totally agree, it was a shocker tbh, thinking how much that car must have cost and it was deffo fully loaded!

On the up side it did look cool but like you say the ride on the motorways at what i think we figured out was deffo well over 100mph the car felt great, no wind noise in the front.

That reminds me, must get the taxi video up the mountain onto pc

 

[[TW]Fox]

I don't want a petrol and it's never really featured in the equation, and I don't know what work will be lined up in the next say 6 months or 1 year that may involve a lot more travelling. Trying to think ahead in that respect, 12k is not a lot of miles for that car but imho would still be enough miles to make me notice the difference over a year of fuelling. Plus, I'm looking into getting a car that will last me at least 5 years, which aside from fuelling costs, is why I'm really taking my time over this and making sure I make the right choice in the end.

I still dont think it really makes much sense, have you driven a petrol E39? The M54 engines are absolutely fantastic. I have a 530i, my Dad has a 530d, we've both driven both cars regularly, and we both agree the M54 in my car is better.

That they are £3-4k cheaper is even more of a bonus plus, if you are keeping the car a long time, you don't have the worry of injector and turbocharger faliure with the petrol.

So active steering is an option...will check to see if it's included in this car.
The thing is, for a couple of grand more I'm getting a newer model

But thats the thing. The only real major plus of an E60 is that its 'the newer model'. You saw the article I re-typed and what they thought of that.

At the end of the day though, its entirely up to you. But for me at least I couldnt spend £4k on a car let alone £14k on a car that I didn't absolutely love in every way. Whereas you've already listed quite a few things you dislike about the E60.

Which models from either range have you driven?

 

[5tephen]

I've driven an E39 530D sport, 2001, 70k miles. I haven't driven an E60 but sat in one a year or so ago, obviously it was impressive.
I've sat in a new Lexus IS-whatever which had every last possible extra and cost over £35,000 - lovely inside but I'd never have one, it was cramped and a VW Golf would be roomier inside. Also sat in a Range Rover 2.7TD Sport that was also about £30,000 a few months earlier, and the interior was very very cheap and plasticy compared to any 5 series I've sat in. Hell of a machine to sit in and look at though, but it's a Range Rover after all. My dad spent £15k on a C270CDi a year ago, I'm spending 500 quid more and getting a 10x better car.

The thing is, either model is going to be top-class inside and if anything, the little niceties of my cousin's car will only improve on that compared to any other model I'd be buying for the same price. Regarding the petrol being £3-4k cheaper - I'm saving £3-4k on the E60 anyway and there's not a single petrol or diesel E60 out there in any decent shape for under £16k! My opinion on the E60 has been mainly based on outer looks alone up until now, but I'll be getting a drive in it this Friday so will know by then.

With the E39 models I've found in local searches, there are very few petrol models at all. But equivalent petrol models are showing a saving of £2k at most, I guess it's less of a saving because the cars are at a reasonably low cost (£10k - £14k) already. Point taken regarding not having injection/turbo failures, but I'm willing to wait for that risk. I do have to say that I'd be dead set on an E39 if this other car didn't come up, because of price alone.

 

[[TW]Fox]

With the E39 models I've found in local searches, there are very few petrol models at all. But equivalent petrol models are showing a saving of £2k at most, I guess it's less of a saving because the cars are at a reasonably low cost (£10k - £14k) already. Point taken regarding not having injection/turbo failures, but I'm willing to wait for that risk. I do have to say that I'd be dead set on an E39 if this other car didn't come up, because of price alone.

This is your problem. You are searching locally. Regardless of what some may think, E39 Sport's are not common cars. They are comparatively quite rare. Therefore, to find a good one, you cannot restrict yourself to looking locally. I searched nationally for mine and eventually bought it from 200 miles away.

Why dont you want a petrol one?