2005 Chinese Grand Prix

Flibster · 16 Oct 2005 at 00:13

2005 Chinese Grand Prix Qualifying session

Running Order

Code:

[b]Driver			Team[/b]
Takuma Sato		BAR-Honda
Juan Pablo Montoya	McLaren-Mercedes
Jarno Trulli		Toyota
Antonio Pizzonia	Williams-BMW
Christijan Albers	Minardi-Cosworth
Narain Karthikeyan	Jordan-Toyota
Robert Doornbos		Minardi-Cosworth
Tiago Monteiro		Jordan-Toyota
Jacques Villeneuve	Sauber-Petronas
Rubens Barrichello	Ferrari
Felipe Massa		Sauber-Petronas
Christian Klien		Red Bull Racing
Ralf Schumacher		Toyota
Michael Schumacher	Ferrari
David Coulthard		Red Bull Racing
Jenson Button		BAR-Honda
Mark Webber		Williams-BMW
Fernando Alonso		Renault
Giancarlo Fisichella	Renault
Kimi Räikkönen		McLaren-Mercedes

Massa on track

S1 - 0.260 down
S2 - 0.499 down
Laptime - 1:35.898

nice lap - immensly better than Villeneuve

Code:

[b]Driver			Team			Time[/b]
Juan Pablo Montoya	McLaren-Mercedes	1:35.188
Rubens Barrichello	Ferrari			1:35.610
Felipe Massa		Sauber-Petronas		1:35.898
Jarno Trulli		Toyota			1:36.044
Antonio Pizzonia	Williams-BMW		1:36.445
Narain Karthikeyan	Jordan-Toyota		1:36.707
Jacques Villeneuve	Sauber-Petronas		1:36.788
Takuma Sato		BAR-Honda		1:37.083
Christijan Albers	Minardi-Cosworth	1:39.105
Tiago Monteiro		Jordan-Toyota		1:39.233
Robert Doornbos		Minardi-Cosworth	1:39.460

Flibster · 16 Oct 2005 at 00:15

2005 Chinese Grand Prix Qualifying session

Running Order

Code:

[b]Driver			Team[/b]
Takuma Sato		BAR-Honda
Juan Pablo Montoya	McLaren-Mercedes
Jarno Trulli		Toyota
Antonio Pizzonia	Williams-BMW
Christijan Albers	Minardi-Cosworth
Narain Karthikeyan	Jordan-Toyota
Robert Doornbos		Minardi-Cosworth
Tiago Monteiro		Jordan-Toyota
Jacques Villeneuve	Sauber-Petronas
Rubens Barrichello	Ferrari
Felipe Massa		Sauber-Petronas
Christian Klien		Red Bull Racing
Ralf Schumacher		Toyota
Michael Schumacher	Ferrari
David Coulthard		Red Bull Racing
Jenson Button		BAR-Honda
Mark Webber		Williams-BMW
Fernando Alonso		Renault
Giancarlo Fisichella	Renault
Kimi Räikkönen		McLaren-Mercedes

Klien on track

S1 - 0.486 down
S2 - 0.836 down
Laptime - 1:36.472

Oooh....rear end out at T3
Wide at T5

Locked up and went wide at the hairpin

Very scrappy lap

Code:

[b]Driver			Team			Time[/b]
Juan Pablo Montoya	McLaren-Mercedes	1:35.188
Rubens Barrichello	Ferrari			1:35.610
Felipe Massa		Sauber-Petronas		1:35.898
Jarno Trulli		Toyota			1:36.044
Antonio Pizzonia	Williams-BMW		1:36.445
Christian Klien		Red Bull Racing		1:36.472
Narain Karthikeyan	Jordan-Toyota		1:36.707
Jacques Villeneuve	Sauber-Petronas		1:36.788
Takuma Sato		BAR-Honda		1:37.083
Christijan Albers	Minardi-Cosworth	1:39.105
Tiago Monteiro		Jordan-Toyota		1:39.233
Robert Doornbos		Minardi-Cosworth	1:39.460

Flibster · 16 Oct 2005 at 00:17

2005 Chinese Grand Prix Qualifying session

Running Order

Code:

[b]Driver			Team[/b]
Takuma Sato		BAR-Honda
Juan Pablo Montoya	McLaren-Mercedes
Jarno Trulli		Toyota
Antonio Pizzonia	Williams-BMW
Christijan Albers	Minardi-Cosworth
Narain Karthikeyan	Jordan-Toyota
Robert Doornbos		Minardi-Cosworth
Tiago Monteiro		Jordan-Toyota
Jacques Villeneuve	Sauber-Petronas
Rubens Barrichello	Ferrari
Felipe Massa		Sauber-Petronas
Christian Klien		Red Bull Racing
Ralf Schumacher		Toyota
Michael Schumacher	Ferrari
David Coulthard		Red Bull Racing
Jenson Button		BAR-Honda
Mark Webber		Williams-BMW
Fernando Alonso		Renault
Giancarlo Fisichella	Renault
Kimi Räikkönen		McLaren-Mercedes

R>Schumacher on track

S1 - 0.187 down
S2 - 0.210 down
Laptime - 1:35.723

B spec Toymota looks better with Ralf

Little wide at the hairpin - missed the apex.

Good lap though

Code:

[b]Driver			Team			Time[/b]
Juan Pablo Montoya	McLaren-Mercedes	1:35.188
Rubens Barrichello	Ferrari			1:35.610
Ralf Schumacher		Toyota			1:35.723
Felipe Massa		Sauber-Petronas		1:35.898
Jarno Trulli		Toyota			1:36.044
Antonio Pizzonia	Williams-BMW		1:36.445
Christian Klien		Red Bull Racing		1:36.472
Narain Karthikeyan	Jordan-Toyota		1:36.707
Jacques Villeneuve	Sauber-Petronas		1:36.788
Takuma Sato		BAR-Honda		1:37.083
Christijan Albers	Minardi-Cosworth	1:39.105
Tiago Monteiro		Jordan-Toyota		1:39.233
Robert Doornbos		Minardi-Cosworth	1:39.460

Flibster · 16 Oct 2005 at 00:19

2005 Chinese Grand Prix Qualifying session

Running Order

Code:

[b]Driver			Team[/b]
Takuma Sato		BAR-Honda
Juan Pablo Montoya	McLaren-Mercedes
Jarno Trulli		Toyota
Antonio Pizzonia	Williams-BMW
Christijan Albers	Minardi-Cosworth
Narain Karthikeyan	Jordan-Toyota
Robert Doornbos		Minardi-Cosworth
Tiago Monteiro		Jordan-Toyota
Jacques Villeneuve	Sauber-Petronas
Rubens Barrichello	Ferrari
Felipe Massa		Sauber-Petronas
Christian Klien		Red Bull Racing
Ralf Schumacher		Toyota
Michael Schumacher	Ferrari
David Coulthard		Red Bull Racing
Jenson Button		BAR-Honda
Mark Webber		Williams-BMW
Fernando Alonso		Renault
Giancarlo Fisichella	Renault
Kimi Räikkönen		McLaren-Mercedes

M.Schumacher on track

S1 - 0.238 down
S2 - 0.344 down
Laptime - 1:35.301

Very wide at T1

Scrappy. Almost looks like he's given up this year - just like in 2003

Code:

[b]Driver			Team			Time[/b]
Juan Pablo Montoya	McLaren-Mercedes	1:35.188
Michael Schumacher	Ferrari			1:35.301
Rubens Barrichello	Ferrari			1:35.610
Ralf Schumacher		Toyota			1:35.723
Felipe Massa		Sauber-Petronas		1:35.898
Jarno Trulli		Toyota			1:36.044
Antonio Pizzonia	Williams-BMW		1:36.445
Christian Klien		Red Bull Racing		1:36.472
Narain Karthikeyan	Jordan-Toyota		1:36.707
Jacques Villeneuve	Sauber-Petronas		1:36.788
Takuma Sato		BAR-Honda		1:37.083
Christijan Albers	Minardi-Cosworth	1:39.105
Tiago Monteiro		Jordan-Toyota		1:39.233
Robert Doornbos		Minardi-Cosworth	1:39.460

Flibster · 16 Oct 2005 at 00:21

2005 Chinese Grand Prix Qualifying session

Running Order

Code:

[b]Driver			Team[/b]
Takuma Sato		BAR-Honda
Juan Pablo Montoya	McLaren-Mercedes
Jarno Trulli		Toyota
Antonio Pizzonia	Williams-BMW
Christijan Albers	Minardi-Cosworth
Narain Karthikeyan	Jordan-Toyota
Robert Doornbos		Minardi-Cosworth
Tiago Monteiro		Jordan-Toyota
Jacques Villeneuve	Sauber-Petronas
Rubens Barrichello	Ferrari
Felipe Massa		Sauber-Petronas
Christian Klien		Red Bull Racing
Ralf Schumacher		Toyota
Michael Schumacher	Ferrari
David Coulthard		Red Bull Racing
Jenson Button		BAR-Honda
Mark Webber		Williams-BMW
Fernando Alonso		Renault
Giancarlo Fisichella	Renault
Kimi Räikkönen		McLaren-Mercedes

Coulthard on track

S1 - 0.287 down
S2 - 0.327 down
Laptime - 1:35.428

The Red Bull looks good in Coulthards hands- I think he's done a great job this year.

They needed someone with experience - not many as experienced as him. Known to give good feedback too.

Good lap.

Code:

[b]Driver			Team			Time[/b]
Juan Pablo Montoya	McLaren-Mercedes	1:35.188
Michael Schumacher	Ferrari			1:35.301
David Coulthard		Red Bull Racing		1:35.428
Rubens Barrichello	Ferrari			1:35.610
Ralf Schumacher		Toyota			1:35.723
Felipe Massa		Sauber-Petronas		1:35.898
Jarno Trulli		Toyota			1:36.044
Antonio Pizzonia	Williams-BMW		1:36.445
Christian Klien		Red Bull Racing		1:36.472
Narain Karthikeyan	Jordan-Toyota		1:36.707
Jacques Villeneuve	Sauber-Petronas		1:36.788
Takuma Sato		BAR-Honda		1:37.083
Christijan Albers	Minardi-Cosworth	1:39.105
Tiago Monteiro		Jordan-Toyota		1:39.233
Robert Doornbos		Minardi-Cosworth	1:39.460

Flibster · 16 Oct 2005 at 00:23

2005 Chinese Grand Prix Qualifying session

Running Order

Code:

[b]Driver			Team[/b]
Takuma Sato		BAR-Honda
Juan Pablo Montoya	McLaren-Mercedes
Jarno Trulli		Toyota
Antonio Pizzonia	Williams-BMW
Christijan Albers	Minardi-Cosworth
Narain Karthikeyan	Jordan-Toyota
Robert Doornbos		Minardi-Cosworth
Tiago Monteiro		Jordan-Toyota
Jacques Villeneuve	Sauber-Petronas
Rubens Barrichello	Ferrari
Felipe Massa		Sauber-Petronas
Christian Klien		Red Bull Racing
Ralf Schumacher		Toyota
Michael Schumacher	Ferrari
David Coulthard		Red Bull Racing
Jenson Button		BAR-Honda
Mark Webber		Williams-BMW
Fernando Alonso		Renault
Giancarlo Fisichella	Renault
Kimi Räikkönen		McLaren-Mercedes

Button on track

S1 - 0.104 up
S2 - 0.215 up
Laptime - 1:34.801

Looking fast. Seems to be carrying a lot of wing.

Very smoothly driven as normal for him.

Slower down the straights though.

Code:

[b]Driver			Team			Time[/b]
Jenson Button		BAR-Honda		1:34.801
Juan Pablo Montoya	McLaren-Mercedes	1:35.188
Michael Schumacher	Ferrari			1:35.301
David Coulthard		Red Bull Racing		1:35.428
Rubens Barrichello	Ferrari			1:35.610
Ralf Schumacher		Toyota			1:35.723
Felipe Massa		Sauber-Petronas		1:35.898
Jarno Trulli		Toyota			1:36.044
Antonio Pizzonia	Williams-BMW		1:36.445
Christian Klien		Red Bull Racing		1:36.472
Narain Karthikeyan	Jordan-Toyota		1:36.707
Jacques Villeneuve	Sauber-Petronas		1:36.788
Takuma Sato		BAR-Honda		1:37.083
Christijan Albers	Minardi-Cosworth	1:39.105
Tiago Monteiro		Jordan-Toyota		1:39.233
Robert Doornbos		Minardi-Cosworth	1:39.460

Flibster · 16 Oct 2005 at 00:25

2005 Chinese Grand Prix Qualifying session

Running Order

Code:

[b]Driver			Team[/b]
Takuma Sato		BAR-Honda
Juan Pablo Montoya	McLaren-Mercedes
Jarno Trulli		Toyota
Antonio Pizzonia	Williams-BMW
Christijan Albers	Minardi-Cosworth
Narain Karthikeyan	Jordan-Toyota
Robert Doornbos		Minardi-Cosworth
Tiago Monteiro		Jordan-Toyota
Jacques Villeneuve	Sauber-Petronas
Rubens Barrichello	Ferrari
Felipe Massa		Sauber-Petronas
Christian Klien		Red Bull Racing
Ralf Schumacher		Toyota
Michael Schumacher	Ferrari
David Coulthard		Red Bull Racing
Jenson Button		BAR-Honda
Mark Webber		Williams-BMW
Fernando Alonso		Renault
Giancarlo Fisichella	Renault
Kimi Räikkönen		McLaren-Mercedes

Webber on track

S1 - 0.081 down
S2 - 0.254 down
Laptime - 1:35.739

Bit of understeer - having to put a bit of effort in at the wheel.

Still smooth - scary that the TC is cutting in under braking.. :eek:

Locks up and wide at the hairpin. Shame.

Code:

[b]Driver			Team			Time[/b]
Jenson Button		BAR-Honda		1:34.801
Juan Pablo Montoya	McLaren-Mercedes	1:35.188
Michael Schumacher	Ferrari			1:35.301
David Coulthard		Red Bull Racing		1:35.428
Rubens Barrichello	Ferrari			1:35.610
Ralf Schumacher		Toyota			1:35.723
Mark Webber		Williams-BMW		1:35.739
Felipe Massa		Sauber-Petronas		1:35.898
Jarno Trulli		Toyota			1:36.044
Antonio Pizzonia	Williams-BMW		1:36.445
Christian Klien		Red Bull Racing		1:36.472
Narain Karthikeyan	Jordan-Toyota		1:36.707
Jacques Villeneuve	Sauber-Petronas		1:36.788
Takuma Sato		BAR-Honda		1:37.083
Christijan Albers	Minardi-Cosworth	1:39.105
Tiago Monteiro		Jordan-Toyota		1:39.233
Robert Doornbos		Minardi-Cosworth	1:39.460

Flibster · 16 Oct 2005 at 00:27

2005 Chinese Grand Prix Qualifying session

Running Order

Code:

[b]Driver			Team[/b]
Takuma Sato		BAR-Honda
Juan Pablo Montoya	McLaren-Mercedes
Jarno Trulli		Toyota
Antonio Pizzonia	Williams-BMW
Christijan Albers	Minardi-Cosworth
Narain Karthikeyan	Jordan-Toyota
Robert Doornbos		Minardi-Cosworth
Tiago Monteiro		Jordan-Toyota
Jacques Villeneuve	Sauber-Petronas
Rubens Barrichello	Ferrari
Felipe Massa		Sauber-Petronas
Christian Klien		Red Bull Racing
Ralf Schumacher		Toyota
Michael Schumacher	Ferrari
David Coulthard		Red Bull Racing
Jenson Button		BAR-Honda
Mark Webber		Williams-BMW
Fernando Alonso		Renault
Giancarlo Fisichella	Renault
Kimi Räikkönen		McLaren-Mercedes

Alonso on track

S1 - 0.324 up
S2 - 0.400 up
Laptime - 1:34.080

17 years as the engine of choice? Errr - no...

12/13 at the most..

Very good lap - hit all the apex's

Code:

[b]Driver			Team			Time[/b]
Fernando Alonso		Renault			1:34.080
Jenson Button		BAR-Honda		1:34.801
Juan Pablo Montoya	McLaren-Mercedes	1:35.188
Michael Schumacher	Ferrari			1:35.301
David Coulthard		Red Bull Racing		1:35.428
Rubens Barrichello	Ferrari			1:35.610
Ralf Schumacher		Toyota			1:35.723
Mark Webber		Williams-BMW		1:35.739
Felipe Massa		Sauber-Petronas		1:35.898
Jarno Trulli		Toyota			1:36.044
Antonio Pizzonia	Williams-BMW		1:36.445
Christian Klien		Red Bull Racing		1:36.472
Narain Karthikeyan	Jordan-Toyota		1:36.707
Jacques Villeneuve	Sauber-Petronas		1:36.788
Takuma Sato		BAR-Honda		1:37.083
Christijan Albers	Minardi-Cosworth	1:39.105
Tiago Monteiro		Jordan-Toyota		1:39.233
Robert Doornbos		Minardi-Cosworth	1:39.460

Flibster · 16 Oct 2005 at 00:30

2005 Chinese Grand Prix Qualifying session

Running Order

Code:

[b]Driver			Team[/b]
Takuma Sato		BAR-Honda
Juan Pablo Montoya	McLaren-Mercedes
Jarno Trulli		Toyota
Antonio Pizzonia	Williams-BMW
Christijan Albers	Minardi-Cosworth
Narain Karthikeyan	Jordan-Toyota
Robert Doornbos		Minardi-Cosworth
Tiago Monteiro		Jordan-Toyota
Jacques Villeneuve	Sauber-Petronas
Rubens Barrichello	Ferrari
Felipe Massa		Sauber-Petronas
Christian Klien		Red Bull Racing
Ralf Schumacher		Toyota
Michael Schumacher	Ferrari
David Coulthard		Red Bull Racing
Jenson Button		BAR-Honda
Mark Webber		Williams-BMW
Fernando Alonso		Renault
Giancarlo Fisichella	Renault
Kimi Räikkönen		McLaren-Mercedes

Fisichella on track

S1 - 0.253 down
S2 - 0.252 down
Laptime - 1:34.401

How can he do compared to Alonso..

Again - good lap - Fisichella's future for me is in doubt after next year.

Still 0.321 down on Alonso..

Code:

[b]Driver			Team			Time[/b]
Fernando Alonso		Renault			1:34.080
Giancarlo Fisichella	Renault			1:34.401
Jenson Button		BAR-Honda		1:34.801
Juan Pablo Montoya	McLaren-Mercedes	1:35.188
Michael Schumacher	Ferrari			1:35.301
David Coulthard		Red Bull Racing		1:35.428
Rubens Barrichello	Ferrari			1:35.610
Ralf Schumacher		Toyota			1:35.723
Mark Webber		Williams-BMW		1:35.739
Felipe Massa		Sauber-Petronas		1:35.898
Jarno Trulli		Toyota			1:36.044
Antonio Pizzonia	Williams-BMW		1:36.445
Christian Klien		Red Bull Racing		1:36.472
Narain Karthikeyan	Jordan-Toyota		1:36.707
Jacques Villeneuve	Sauber-Petronas		1:36.788
Takuma Sato		BAR-Honda		1:37.083
Christijan Albers	Minardi-Cosworth	1:39.105
Tiago Monteiro		Jordan-Toyota		1:39.233
Robert Doornbos		Minardi-Cosworth	1:39.460

Flibster · 16 Oct 2005 at 00:32

2005 Chinese Grand Prix Qualifying session

Running Order

Code:

[b]Driver			Team[/b]
Takuma Sato		BAR-Honda
Juan Pablo Montoya	McLaren-Mercedes
Jarno Trulli		Toyota
Antonio Pizzonia	Williams-BMW
Christijan Albers	Minardi-Cosworth
Narain Karthikeyan	Jordan-Toyota
Robert Doornbos		Minardi-Cosworth
Tiago Monteiro		Jordan-Toyota
Jacques Villeneuve	Sauber-Petronas
Rubens Barrichello	Ferrari
Felipe Massa		Sauber-Petronas
Christian Klien		Red Bull Racing
Ralf Schumacher		Toyota
Michael Schumacher	Ferrari
David Coulthard		Red Bull Racing
Jenson Button		BAR-Honda
Mark Webber		Williams-BMW
Fernando Alonso		Renault
Giancarlo Fisichella	Renault
Kimi Räikkönen		McLaren-Mercedes

Fisichella on track

S1 - 0.179 down
S2 - 0.219 down
Laptime - 1:34.488

Running wide in T1 and T5/6

Oversteer into the hairpin

That car was not good - looks like its twitchy, which is odd for the McLaren...

Code:

[b]Driver			Team			Time[/b]
Fernando Alonso		Renault			1:34.080
Giancarlo Fisichella	Renault			1:34.401
Kimi Räikkönen		McLaren-Mercedes	1:34.488
Jenson Button		BAR-Honda		1:34.801
Juan Pablo Montoya	McLaren-Mercedes	1:35.188
Michael Schumacher	Ferrari			1:35.301
David Coulthard		Red Bull Racing		1:35.428
Rubens Barrichello	Ferrari			1:35.610
Ralf Schumacher		Toyota			1:35.723
Mark Webber		Williams-BMW		1:35.739
Felipe Massa		Sauber-Petronas		1:35.898
Jarno Trulli		Toyota			1:36.044
Antonio Pizzonia	Williams-BMW		1:36.445
Christian Klien		Red Bull Racing		1:36.472
Narain Karthikeyan	Jordan-Toyota		1:36.707
Jacques Villeneuve	Sauber-Petronas		1:36.788
Takuma Sato		BAR-Honda		1:37.083
Christijan Albers	Minardi-Cosworth	1:39.105
Tiago Monteiro		Jordan-Toyota		1:39.233
Robert Doornbos		Minardi-Cosworth	1:39.460

Flibster · 16 Oct 2005 at 00:38

All McLaren need is 2 more points than Renault - then they win the championship.

They'll go for the 1-2 though.

At least Villeneuve is way down the back.

Raikkonen 0.4 down - we know the McLaren is faster than the Renault by ~0.3-0.5
taking those wobbles from Raikkonen into account - I still think he's heavier on fuel.

They've run heavy for the most of the year and it's worked well - why change it.

Biggest issue is the speed of the Renaults down the straight - 7km/h faster than Raikkonen

Flibster · 16 Oct 2005 at 00:49

Oh well - see you all in 5 hours...

Then I have to clean my playroom *don't ask...*
Tidy My Cd's/DVD's...
For the new lights in the Kitchen...
Send my rough idea for a brain bucket off to a professional

What a lovely day...

So - 6:15 - Breakfast discussion as per Japan?

Flibster · 16 Oct 2005 at 06:01

Morning....

Officially got bugger all sleep...

Who's stupid idea was this?

Flibster · 16 Oct 2005 at 06:05

ashtray_head said:
Morning....er YOURS!!!!

Bugger...

ashtray_head said:
coffee?

Espresso machine is on.

Somone shut that greasy haired pilock up....

Flibster · 16 Oct 2005 at 06:09

2005 Chinese Grand Prix Grid

Code:

[b]Driver			Team			Time[/b]
Fernando Alonso		Renault			1:34.080
Giancarlo Fisichella	Renault			1:34.401
Kimi Räikkönen		McLaren-Mercedes	1:34.488
Jenson Button		BAR-Honda		1:34.801
Juan Pablo Montoya	McLaren-Mercedes	1:35.188
Michael Schumacher	Ferrari			1:35.301
David Coulthard		Red Bull Racing		1:35.428
Rubens Barrichello	Ferrari			1:35.610
Ralf Schumacher		Toyota			1:35.723
Mark Webber		Williams-BMW		1:35.739
Felipe Massa		Sauber-Petronas		1:35.898
Jarno Trulli		Toyota			1:36.044
Antonio Pizzonia	Williams-BMW		1:36.445
Christian Klien		Red Bull Racing		1:36.472
Narain Karthikeyan	Jordan-Toyota		1:36.707
Jacques Villeneuve	Sauber-Petronas		1:36.788
Takuma Sato		BAR-Honda		1:37.083
Christijan Albers	Minardi-Cosworth	1:39.105
Tiago Monteiro		Jordan-Toyota		1:39.233
Robert Doornbos		Minardi-Cosworth	1:39.460

Flibster · 16 Oct 2005 at 06:09

Barrichello ripping the jimmy out of Louise.

Good good good.

Flibster · 16 Oct 2005 at 06:14

Just wondering what other crap they're going to fill the hour with...

Wonder if there's another Martin tech spot - they were pretty good.

Flibster · 16 Oct 2005 at 06:15

ashtray_head said:
so, Simon who do you wanna win the constructors??

Mclaren for me....

McLaren - I'm a McLaren boy.

Not only is it the most beautiful car - it's the fastest.

Flibster · 16 Oct 2005 at 06:16

Aha....Mark Blundell training with Raikkonen.

I have a good idea how this is going to end.

Flibster · 16 Oct 2005 at 06:18

All that brings back many nasty, painful memories of early mornings