2005 European Grand Prix

clv101 · 29 May 2005 at 15:42

Flibster said:
McLaren were right to keep him out - that tyre was not dangerous by the standards of the FIA - Plus they raced for the win - not for the podium.

I think McLaren made a mistake - given condition of the car around 5 laps from the end, the way the points are awarded now and Kimi's position in the championship relative to Alonso. Pitting to change the tire would have dropped him from 10 points to 6, and lose him 4 points with respect to Alonso.

Not doing anything could have got them 10 points to Alonso's 8, only a 2 point advantage but risk losing the lot and losing 10 points to Alonso.

In my opinion, just looking at the championship points it would have been better to guarantee 6 points than risk losing the lot when Alonso was set for 8 or 10 no matter what happened.

I doubt the FIA would have challenged the legality of the tire change - pitting to change a tire a couple of laps from the end of a race you are leading would show the FIA the only reason it was being done was to mitigate catastrophic failure, something the FIA would approve of.

The question of safety only adds weight to that decision.

Grand prix racing is more about consistency and reliability than wining races these days – just look at Kimi’s 2003 performance! McLaren forgot that today.

goreblast · 29 May 2005 at 15:46

Flister - I record it on my HTPC which is in same room as the main TV so can glance over to the computer TFT screen (as it runs behind as you said) if I miss something.

Flibster · 29 May 2005 at 15:47

Race Results.

Code:

[b]Pos	No	Driver			Team			Laps	Time		Grid	Points[/b]
1	5	Fernando Alonso		Renault			59	Winner		6	10 
2	8	Nick Heidfeld		Williams-BMW		59	+16.5 secs	1	8 
3	2	Rubens Barrichello	Ferrari			59	+18.5 secs	7	6 
4	14	David Coulthard		Red Bull Racing		59	+31.5 secs	12	5 
5	1	Michael Schumacher	Ferrari			59	+50.4 secs	10	4 
6	6	Giancarlo Fisichella	Renault			59	+51.9 secs	9	3 
7	10	Juan Pablo Montoya	McLaren-Mercedes	59	+58.1 secs	5	2 
8	16	Jarno Trulli		Toyota			59	+71.0 secs	4	1 
9	15	Vitantonio Liuzzi	Red Bull Racing		59	+71.5 secs	14	 
10	3	Jenson Button		BAR-Honda		59	+95.7 secs	13	 
11	9	Kimi Räikkönen		McLaren-Mercedes	58	+1 Lap		2	 
12	4	Takuma Sato		BAR-Honda		58	+1 Lap		16	 
13	11	Jacques Villeneuve	Sauber-Petronas		58	+1 Lap		15	 
14	12	Felipe Massa		Sauber-Petronas		58	+1 Lap		11	 
15	18	Tiago Monteiro		Jordan-Toyota		58	+1 Lap		17	 
16	19	Narain Karthikeyan	Jordan-Toyota		58	+1 Lap		19	 
17	21	Christijan Albers	Minardi-Cosworth	57	+2 Laps		20	 
18	20	Patrick Friesacher	Minardi-Cosworth	56	+3 Laps		18	 
Ret	17	Ralf Schumacher		Toyota			33	+26 Laps	8	 
Ret	7	Mark Webber		Williams-BMW		0	+ 59 Laps	3

Fastest Laps.

Code:

[b]Pos	No	Driver			Team			Lap	Time		Speed		Laptime[/b]
1	5	Fernando Alonso		Renault			44	15:15:23	204.305		1:30.711 
2	9	Kimi Räikkönen		McLaren-Mercedes	9	14:20:58	203.791		1:30.940 
3	2	Rubens Barrichello	Ferrari			44	15:15:48	203.594		1:31.028 
4	8	Nick Heidfeld		Williams-BMW		9	14:21:00	203.380		1:31.124 
5	14	David Coulthard		Red Bull Racing		19	14:36:33	202.974		1:31.306 
6	1	Michael Schumacher	Ferrari			19	14:36:53	202.537		1:31.503 
7	6	Giancarlo Fisichella	Renault			47	15:20:57	202.084		1:31.708 
8	17	Ralf Schumacher		Toyota			25	14:46:53	202.049		1:31.724 
9	16	Jarno Trulli		Toyota			43	15:14:43	201.928		1:31.779 
10	10	Juan Pablo Montoya	McLaren-Mercedes	42	15:13:03	201.866		1:31.807 
11	4	Takuma Sato		BAR-Honda		26	14:48:24	201.686		1:31.889 
12	3	Jenson Button		BAR-Honda		20	14:38:33	201.542		1:31.955 
13	15	Vitantonio Liuzzi	Red Bull Racing		43	15:14:40	201.506		1:31.971 
14	12	Felipe Massa		Sauber-Petronas		18	14:35:14	200.725		1:32.329 
15	11	Jacques Villeneuve	Sauber-Petronas		41	15:12:20	200.174		1:32.583 
16	19	Narain Karthikeyan	Jordan-Toyota		21	14:40:38	198.653		1:33.292 
17	18	Tiago Monteiro		Jordan-Toyota		39	15:09:29	198.370		1:33.425 
18	21	Christijan Albers	Minardi-Cosworth	18	14:36:22	194.985		1:35.047 
19	20	Patrick Friesacher	Minardi-Cosworth	18	14:36:28	193.987		1:35.536

Pit Stops

Code:

[b]Stop	No	Driver			Time			Lap	Time of day	Time	Total time[/b]
1	4	Takuma Sato		BAR-Honda		1	14:09:04	30.619	30.619 
1	17	Ralf Schumacher		Toyota			1	14:09:24	26.870	26.870 
1	16	Jarno Trulli		Toyota			8	14:19:42	13.658	13.658 
1	2	Rubens Barrichello	Ferrari			11	14:24:27	25.585	25.585 
1	8	Nick Heidfeld		Williams-BMW		12	14:25:35	23.876	23.876 
1	9	Kimi Räikkönen		McLaren-Mercedes	18	14:34:41	25.702	25.702 
2	16	Jarno Trulli		Toyota			18	14:35:23	27.484	41.142 
1	12	Felipe Massa		Sauber-Petronas		19	14:36:47	27.346	27.346 
1	15	Vitantonio Liuzzi	Red Bull Racing		19	14:36:54	27.232	27.232 
1	10	Juan Pablo Montoya	McLaren-Mercedes	19	14:36:54	25.994	25.994 
1	20	Patrick Friesacher	Minardi-Cosworth	19	14:38:06	27.820	27.820 
1	14	David Coulthard		Red Bull Racing		20	14:38:06	27.099	27.099 
1	1	Michael Schumacher	Ferrari			20	14:38:25	26.431	26.431 
1	21	Christijan Albers	Minardi-Cosworth	20	14:39:33	28.087	28.087 
1	18	Tiago Monteiro		Jordan-Toyota		21	14:40:37	25.413	25.413 
1	6	Giancarlo Fisichella	Renault			22	14:41:40	26.905	26.905 
1	19	Narain Karthikeyan	Jordan-Toyota		22	14:42:13	24.722	24.722 
1	5	Fernando Alonso		Renault			23	14:42:41	26.478	26.478 
2	14	David Coulthard		Red Bull Racing		23	14:43:15	13.683	40.782 
1	3	Jenson Button		BAR-Honda		23	14:43:15	25.616	25.616 
1	11	Jacques Villeneuve	Sauber-Petronas		24	14:45:17	26.019	26.019 
2	17	Ralf Schumacher		Toyota			26	14:48:26	25.374	52.244 
2	4	Takuma Sato		BAR-Honda		27	14:49:58	25.370	55.989 
2	8	Nick Heidfeld		Williams-BMW		31	14:55:09	24.911	48.787 
2	21	Christijan Albers	Minardi-Cosworth	30	14:56:08	13.905	41.992 
2	2	Rubens Barrichello	Ferrari			33	14:58:34	23.395	48.980 
2	20	Patrick Friesacher	Minardi-Cosworth	37	15:07:46	28.357	56.177 
3	21	Christijan Albers	Minardi-Cosworth	38	15:09:10	26.772	1:08.764 
2	19	Narain Karthikeyan	Jordan-Toyota		40	15:11:01	24.509	49.231 
2	9	Kimi Räikkönen		McLaren-Mercedes	43	15:13:40	23.444	49.146 
2	18	Tiago Monteiro		Jordan-Toyota		42	15:14:11	24.156	49.569 
2	12	Felipe Massa		Sauber-Petronas		44	15:16:07	24.140	51.486 
2	15	Vitantonio Liuzzi	Red Bull Racing		44	15:16:15	24.200	51.432 
2	10	Juan Pablo Montoya	McLaren-Mercedes	45	15:17:42	23.937	49.931 
3	18	Tiago Monteiro		Jordan-Toyota		44	15:17:48	13.732	1:03.301 
3	16	Jarno Trulli		Toyota			45	15:17:49	23.596	1:04.738 
2	1	Michael Schumacher	Ferrari			46	15:19:10	22.871	49.302 
2	3	Jenson Button		BAR-Honda		46	15:19:25	23.459	49.075 
2	5	Fernando Alonso		Renault			47	15:20:04	22.738	49.216 
2	11	Jacques Villeneuve	Sauber-Petronas		46	15:20:11	22.902	48.921 
3	14	David Coulthard		Red Bull Racing		47	15:20:35	22.793	1:03.575 
3	2	Rubens Barrichello	Ferrari			48	15:21:56	21.880	1:10.860 
3	4	Takuma Sato		BAR-Honda		49	15:24:32	21.936	1:17.925 
3	8	Nick Heidfeld		Williams-BMW		50	15:24:55	22.073	1:10.860 
2	6	Giancarlo Fisichella	Renault			50	15:25:35	21.126	48.031 
3	12	Felipe Massa		Sauber-Petronas		54	15:32:48	38.483	1:29.969

Flibster · 29 May 2005 at 15:56

clv101 said:
I think McLaren made a mistake - given condition of the car around 5 laps from the end, the way the points are awarded now and Kimi's position in the championship relative to Alonso. Pitting to change the tire would have dropped him from 10 points to 6, and lose him 4 points with respect to Alonso.

Not doing anything could have got them 10 points to Alonso's 8, only a 2 point advantage but risk losing the lot and losing 10 points to Alonso.

In my opinion, just looking at the championship points it would have been better to guarantee 6 points than risk losing the lot when Alonso was set for 8 or 10 no matter what happened.

I doubt the FIA would have challenged the legality of the tire change - pitting to change a tire a couple of laps from the end of a race you are leading would show the FIA the only reason it was being done was to mitigate catastrophic failure, something the FIA would approve of.

The question of safety only adds weight to that decision.

Grand prix racing is more about consistency and reliability than wining races these days – just look at Kimi’s 2003 performance! McLaren forgot that today.

There was no guarantee that the car was not damaged by that point and would have lasted the remaining couple of laps. Also - if the suspension was damaged by that point - would you have sent the car out knowing it was unlikely to finish - so again - 0 points there from the retirement.

Plus the FIA are being pretty hot on checking tyres - it wasn't delaminating, deflated, cracked rim, blistered - just flatspotted

They have said that they will not permit a tyre to be changed just for a flatspot.

They took a risk - if it came off everyone would have been 'Wow...' Now..they're just slating them for not pitting instead of risking it for the win.

Raikkonen is a racer - I don't think there was 1 driver out there who would have pitted and then driven for 3rd place rather than risking it for the win.

Simon/~Flibster

Firestar_3x · 29 May 2005 at 15:59

Flibster said:
Raikkonen is a racer - I don't think there was 1 driver out there who would have pitted and then driven for 3rd place rather than risking it for the win.

Simon/~Flibster

I agree, it was a brave move staying out but tbh they had little choice in the matter, if the car had come in the damage was already done and they would have retired it in the pits.

Squarehed · 29 May 2005 at 17:08

Darn it was so close wasnt it! I'ma die hard F1 fan. Mclaren (and their finnish drivers... mika was a master) fan here. Shame Kimi didnt win it. I thought he'd have a tough time keeping ahead of Alonso.

Good to see such an active interest in F1 here. Be nice to me

Flibster · 29 May 2005 at 18:17

Squarehed said:
Darn it was so close wasnt it! I'ma die hard F1 fan. Mclaren (and their finnish drivers... mika for *** win!) fan boi here. Shame we didnt win it. i never even thought about pitting before, though i did say to my bro that he'll never make it. Cept i meant alonso woulda caught him... not acrash out

Good to see such an active interest in F1 here. Be nice to me

There's a few F1 fans round here.

As fans go - I think I'm pretty much the most F1 obsessed nutter here. Will watch it wherever I am if at all possible - even in foreign languages *Done it before...

*

As for the race - I think Raikkonen would have had it if his suspension hadn't failed. Alonso would have been right up his gearbox - but I don't think he'd be able to make a pass.

Simon/~Flibster

Vertigo · 29 May 2005 at 18:32

Flibster said:
They have said that they will not permit a tyre to be changed just for a flatspot.

Until someone has a major suspension failure similar to Kimi's but which causes a large accident, at which point the safety implications will be raised and the rules altered.

Vertigo · 29 May 2005 at 18:35

Flibster said:
Raikkonen is a racer - I don't think there was 1 driver out there who would have pitted and then driven for 3rd place rather than risking it for the win.

Fine, he's a racer and it was the decision of a racer, but it may well end up costing him the world championship and someone in his position needs to think about these things rather than just going for the win all the time because "that's what a true racer does".

I think Michael would have pitted had he been in the same situation and I wouldn't be at all surprised if Ron was advising Kimi to pit over the radio for the last few laps.

Emlyn_Dewar · 29 May 2005 at 19:03

We're only 7 races in, if you look at the bigger picture the WDC for Kimi is definately achievable.
A few f1 boards are calling them (KR and Mclaren) complete idiots which I just don't understand.
It's amazing how many supposed race fans have slated the move to stay out. It almost worked! They would have been heroes, alas it didn't and they get nothing but that's the way it goes. They'll be back up the front next race and going for the win.

I just wonder how many people would have slated them had they pitted on the last lap for a tyre change. Probably the same number, and infact the same people...

J1nxy · 29 May 2005 at 22:47

The idiot Max Mosley on his crusade for "cheaper" F1 has managed to not only make it less intersting but also more dangerous for the drivers. Whats the point in having the pinacle of Motorsport when you get more overtaking in 1 lap of just about anything else than you do in the Top flight F1???

If they can't change tyres then why not just ban pit stops completly?? rather than the joke of having 20 people stand around the car looking at the tyres and going hmmm there a bit worn...well nothing I can do about it send alter the tyres pressure and send him out...

The next thing he'll be wanting to do is have an engine which last a whole season, with no testing in the off season and everybody running identical kit...oh hang on hes done that already with the GP2 series which has large capacity engines than F1 already and can change tyres.

Rant over, I loved F1 and have family interest in it so still watch but its getting to the stage now where I sky+ it and then watch a concise version after its finished.

Thank god he hasn't really got his mits on WTCC, Rally, BTCC and the bikes.

Steve

Flibster · 29 May 2005 at 23:18

J1nxy said:
The idiot Max Mosley on his crusade for "cheaper" F1 has managed to not only make it less intersting but also more dangerous for the drivers. Whats the point in having the pinacle of Motorsport when you get more overtaking in 1 lap of just about anything else than you do in the Top flight F1???

If they can't change tyres then why not just ban pit stops completly?? rather than the joke of having 20 people stand around the car looking at the tyres and going hmmm there a bit worn...well nothing I can do about it send alter the tyres pressure and send him out...

The next thing he'll be wanting to do is have an engine which last a whole season, with no testing in the off season and everybody running identical kit...oh hang on hes done that already with the GP2 series which has large capacity engines than F1 already and can change tyres.

Rant over, I loved F1 and have family interest in it so still watch but its getting to the stage now where I sky+ it and then watch a concise version after its finished.

Thank god he hasn't really got his mits on WTCC, Rally, BTCC and the bikes.

Steve

Just wait until F1 goes bye bye when the GPWC takes off - He'll start looking at other things then.

It seems that he picks on F1 as thats the Jewel in the crown and also brings in the most money for the FIA.

Personally I'd rate Max Mosely only slightly above James Allen on the prat tables...

Bernie slightly below both of them..

Simon/~Flibster

J1nxy · 29 May 2005 at 23:23

...and Brundle below them all...why can't the sad has been who never did much anyway SHUT UP???? Thank God Eurosport have decent commentators like Julian & Toby for the GP bikes...people who pay an interst in what they are watching(and for that matter attention, I spoted Alonso infront of Kimi minutes before either of them did) and something that neither of the idiots on ITV do, get excited.

Hiann · 29 May 2005 at 23:25

Emlyn_Dewar said:
It's amazing how many supposed race fans have slated the move to stay out. It almost worked! They would have been heroes, alas it didn't and they get nothing but that's the way it goes. They'll be back up the front next race and going for the win.

Exactly my thoughts: if they've pitted they've have got slated for not racing properly and a lot of peeps would have said "what it?".

Kimi went for it like a true driver and unlucky for him it didnt work but if it had that would have been slapping it into everyone else by saying "we had a damaged car and we still won". Good for him for trying!

goreblast · 29 May 2005 at 23:29

who filled out the FIA survey then?

Flibster · 29 May 2005 at 23:33

J1nxy said:
...and Brundle below them all...why can't the sad has been who never did much anyway SHUT UP???? Thank God Eurosport have decent commentators like Julian & Toby for the GP bikes...people who pay an interst in what they are watching(and for that matter attention, I spoted Alonso infront of Kimi minutes before either of them did) and something that neither of the idiots on ITV do, get excited.

Brundle is pretty good...

Certainly better than Jonathan Palmer was - not as good as James Hunt though *who was pretty much stoned when doing the commentaries..

*

James Allen just gets on my **** though..

"We don't want any human beings or mechanics on the grid..."

Wtf???

Anyone else think that when he gets excited that he starts to sound like the Crazy Frog?

FIA Survey has been filled in - more than once actually. I love the - Do you feel that F1 is well managed? question...Hmmm..let me think...

Simon/~Flibster

Firestar_3x · 30 May 2005 at 01:02

goreblast said:
who filled out the FIA survey then?

Good point, need to do this last week it was down.

Hiann · 30 May 2005 at 16:11

If you want to do it more than once, just delete your cookies and do it again.

Flibster · 31 May 2005 at 10:51

Heard from a mate at McLaren - the tyre was still inflated after the car hit the wall. Was a little on the knackered side though.

They were aware that there was a possibility of suspension failure due to the vibration caused - but they were not sure if the vibration was bad though.

Most likely the vibration caused weaknesses to appear at the metal/carbon fibre joints and they finally cracked - or on that lap the out of kilter wheel hit the vibration frequency of one of the components in the suspension causing it to fail.

This will be looked at back at the factory.

Apparently the team are gutted..no surprise there.

Oh..and I need a volunteer..

Simon/~Flibster

J1nxy · 31 May 2005 at 11:06

Did anybody else notice the flash on the inside of the wheel before it let go?

Volunteer for what is the question??