2008 German GP - Race 10/18

[sunama]

I'm looking forward to the new rules just so we can see some closer racing due to less turbulent air as well as the aesthetics.

I actually think that this (and last year's) rules were spot on. They have succeeded in making all the races as close as possible and no single driver/team has managed to pull away in the WDC. Even now, no one has much of an advantage.

Compare this to say 1992 or 1993, when Williams were at the peak of their powers and drivers were winning races by large margins and amassing huge points totals, such that the Formula One Champion would have doubled the 2nd placed driver's points total, by the end of the season and you see how things have improved.

I actually think that what we are seeing now (and in 2007) is as close as I have seen racing, in the last 20 years, since I started watching F1.

I'm dissapointed by CSI's comment that the new regs wont make much difference next year, however, I was expecting this. The driver/cars that were fast this year will also be fast next year. This has always been the case, such as when driver aids were removed for 2008, yet we see exactly the same drivers/teams competing for the titles (bar Alonso, as he changed teams).

 

[Duke]

I actually think that this (and last year's) rules were spot on. They have succeeded in making all the races as close as possible and no single driver/team has managed to pull away in the WDC. Even now, no one has much of an advantage.

Compare this to say 1992 or 1993, when Williams were at the peak of their powers and drivers were winning races by large margins and amassing huge points totals, such that the Formula One Champion would have doubled the 2nd placed driver's points total, by the end of the season and you see how things have improved.

Anyone remember the 107% qually rule? Shows how much closer the times are now.

 

[JRS]

I actually think that this (and last year's) rules were spot on. They have succeeded in making all the races as close as possible and no single driver/team has managed to pull away in the WDC. Even now, no one has much of an advantage.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - you're easily pleased if you think this is vintage Grannd Prix racing.

Fair enough - last weekend, Hamilton actually overtook people on-track to win the race. But who was he going by? His team-mate, who didn't really fight too hard. Massa, in an off-form Ferrari. Piquet Jr, who so far has not shown himself to be God's gift to motor racing. Great. Super. So he's blown by three guys who you'd expect him to. And that makes great racing, does it?

Compare this to say 1992 or 1993, when Williams were at the peak of their powers and drivers were winning races by large margins and amassing huge points totals, such that the Formula One Champion would have doubled the 2nd placed driver's points total, by the end of the season and you see how things have improved.

1992 had some seriously good on-track action, even if Mansell did rather romp away with it at times. Monaco had the titanic scrap between Mansell and Senna. Spa featured the real start of the Schumacher legend. Silverstone, despite not being close, was great fun to watch. Monza was good, Adelaide was good. Christ, even the Hungary race was pretty good that year!

As for 1993 - 22 drivers out of the 35 who contested at least one race got points. 11 of the 13 teams got points (only Tyrrell and Lola didn't). Sure, Williams got twice as many points as their nearest rival (McLaren). Sure, in the end Prost had a pretty healthy winning margin. But we still got to see races like Interlagos which saw that torrential downpour that caught Prost out, Senna pushing past Hill, and Schumacher snatching third near the end of the race. The European GP, with the Senna masterclass on Lap 1. Hill's heartbreaking puncture on the penultimate lap in Hockenheim. The Williams 'train' at Magny-Cours.

***edit***

And before I get letters about my comments re: Hamilton's race - I've already said that it was a brilliant drive. But it wasn't really racing, was it? He was just making his way back to his rightful position on the road.

 

[Slam62]

silverstone 92 was dull as dishwater

most races were

and I was a crazy mansell fan

edit

I think you are looking back with rose tinted specs

F1 on race day has never been that exciting and it shouldn't be either otherwise it becomes toytown racing aka btcc

 

[JRS]

silverstone 92 was dull as dishwater

Really? See, I found it fun watching Mansell on top of his game on home soil. It wasn't close by any stretch - he won by about 40 seconds IIRC. And yes, the result was never in any doubt (other than reliability rearing its head every so often that year). But....I enjoy watching that race.

I think you are looking back with rose tinted specs

Why do people always say that?

I've got a metric ****-ton of old races on VCR tape, DVD and on my computer. I watch them when there's sod-all on TV, which is quite often these days. I'm not looking back at them - I'm looking at them. And while there are many, many dull races in my library (1993 Spain can't be an epic, I dozed off watching it last week), there are many more bloody brilliant ones.

F1 on race day has never been that exciting and it shouldn't be either otherwise it becomes toytown racing aka btcc

I don't necessarily want to see NASCAR levels of overtaking every race. I just want to see something remotely exciting. And Hamilton blowing the sidepods off much slower cars in order to regain his place at the front just doesn't cut it, I'm afraid.

 

[Dup]

I grew up during the late Mansell and mid Hill years with a bit of Senna thrown in. To me it's not about the top teams like Williams and McLaren back then who dominated but the whole field. I didn't much care who won, but these days even the mid field doesn't see much action which is what i'm looking forward to the most.

I understand budget isn't that much of a part and loved the early Hill and Jordan combo, I always back an underdog but I do feel the business side of things could be too prominent amongst the mid field where cars are being run for the sponsors rather than the racing. I just wonder how some of the teams are not able to develop as much as the top 3. Forgive me if I'm being thick. I know little about F1 as it stands, I jusdt enjoy the racing

 

[Slam62]

the top two teams have moved so far ahead in organisational terms that it will be very hard to catch them,
mind you bmw and toyota (honda?) ought to be able to.

I do think F1 is too polished these days, not enough rough edges.

edit:

Hamilton comes across sometimes as an unemotional media robot, which might take some of the edge from his appeal. Drivers in the 80s and 90s were definitely not media friendly robots. Imagine Lewis with anger, sorry attitude

 

[Dup]

I really like Button. He's not shy of the camera but he dresses everything down and is just pretty cool about things.

I think he has gotten too complacent that he has a rubbish car, says it himself so isn't even trying anymore. He was a great drive in the BAR. I remember a good few tussles with Alonso in the mid field a few years back, some good driving.

 

[sunama]

I think he has gotten too complacent that he has a rubbish car, says it himself so isn't even trying anymore. He was a great drive in the BAR. I remember a good few tussles with Alonso in the mid field a few years back, some good driving.

Yep. He used to be good and up until the season that he won a GP, he seemed to be trying very hard. At that point had either Honda improved or he moved teams, things might've been different. But now, he is just a guy, happy with the fame and fortune. Even the oldest man of the field who was demolished by MS (while at Ferrari), is beating him regularly and Barrichello has never been seen as a title contender.

Its a shame really.

 

[sunama]

the top two teams have moved so far ahead in organisational terms that it will be very hard to catch them,
mind you bmw and toyota (honda?) ought to be able to.

BMW have got close this season, so it should be interesting to see what happens next season. Also, the drivers make a massive difference (as we've seen this year and last). I doubt Honda will be able to consistently able to compete for podiums next year - they just dont have the personnel in place.

I do think F1 is too polished these days, not enough rough edges.

edit:

Hamilton comes across sometimes as an unemotional media robot, which might take some of the edge from his appeal. Drivers in the 80s and 90s were definitely not media friendly robots. Imagine Lewis with anger, sorry attitude

All sport has moved in this direction though - from training and the way sports peoples' lives are organised. You cant afford to be a womanising, boozing driver and be at the top - something that was possible in the 70's.

 

[sunama]

1992 had some seriously good on-track action, even if Mansell did rather romp away with it at times.

As for 1993 - 22 drivers out of the 35 who contested at least one race got points.

That may well be the case, but it depends which angle you look at it.

In 1992, before any race started, you would put money on Mansell winning it. If not him, then Senna or Patrese.

In 1993, before any race started, you would put money on Prost winning it. If not him, then Senna or Hill.

These days, I have no idea who will win the next race. Right now, Hamilton is showing great form, however, I strongly feel this is because the last track suited McLaren, while the one before that was a wet race (which suits Hamilton). In the next race it could be totally different and Ferrari could be back on top.

In 1992 and 93, Williams were the fastest in every race. As an example, in 1992, Mansell qualifed in pole, almost 2s faster than the next guy. These days, this simply wouldnt happen. If you weren't in a Williams, then you were fighting for 3rd place.

The winner of each GP can no longer be predicted with any confidence.

 

[JonnyT]

Yep the cars look much better in the photos of them testing the 09 aero. They still look like F1 cars, but without the silly winglets.

One problem with that. The front wing is too high! In two regulation changes in 2001 and 2005 the FIA basically massively exacerbated the problem of cars following one another though corners.

Look at the contrast between a year-2000 McLaren and a 2005 season one:

2000


2005


That's an awful lot of front-end downforce (and therefore grip) lost. When the wing was much lower it was much less affected by the turbulent air from the diffuser/rear wing of the car in front than it is now, and also gained downforce from being closer to the ground through a form of 'ground effect'.

 

[Jimbeam3678]

That may well be the case, but it depends which angle you look at it.

In 1992, before any race started, you would put money on Mansell winning it. If not him, then Senna or Patrese.

In 1993, before any race started, you would put money on Prost winning it. If not him, then Senna or Hill.

These days, I have no idea who will win the next race. Right now, Hamilton is showing great form, however, I strongly feel this is because the last track suited McLaren, while the one before that was a wet race (which suits Hamilton). In the next race it could be totally different and Ferrari could be back on top.

In 1992 and 93, Williams were the fastest in every race. As an example, in 1992, Mansell qualifed in pole, almost 2s faster than the next guy. These days, this simply wouldnt happen. If you weren't in a Williams, then you were fighting for 3rd place.

The winner of each GP can no longer be predicted with any confidence.

Quoted for the truth

 

[Sparky]

Okay, I'm not used to people agreeing with me in F1 threads on this forum. What gives? Did I wake up in some strange parallel universe this morning?

Sorry normal service resumes.

YOU LIE!!!!

 

[Sparky]

How is he getting on? Honda were really dumb getting rid of him!

He loves it Duke. I think he finds it a totally different challenge to Honda. He pulled my best mate out of Honda with him, Paul Field, Paul runs Composites and since his arrival the Test team have never gone to a test without a part they wanted.

Red Bull are a up and coming team for sure and although it is early days, the infrastructure is in place. Adrian Newey is never a bad man to have on your side.

 

[sunama]

Adrian Newey is never a bad man to have on your side.

In the late 90s, Adrian Newey was the only guy considered to be able to beat MS/Ferrari. Hakkinen made good use of the car he built by winning 2 WDCs.

Newey wasnt too bad when he was at Williams either - being central to their cars which dominated in 1992/93 and won the titles in 96 and 97.

As you say, its great to have him on your side, though CSI, surely if you are going to consistently challenge for podiums, you would need a leading driver in your team - why have you not attempted to bring one in yet?

 

[Sparky]

Webber is more than man enough for the challenge, Vettel will give him that added kick up the ass with any luck.

 

[sunama]

Webber is more than man enough for the challenge, Vettel will give him that added kick up the ass with any luck.

I realise that he is "your" driver, hence you are obliged to back him. However, in life, sometimes you have to be realistic. He isnt in the same class as Hamilton, Alonso or Kimi.

From my perspective, I see Redbull as a team whose aim is now to achieve regular podiums. If they are to achieve this, they will need to beat a Ferrari or a McLaren, which means Massa, as well as the 2 drivers Ive listed above. If they have a top line driver, then this might be realistic, but with Webber, you will need to provide him with a car which is faster than a McLaren/Ferrari and even BMW, Kubica's recent form is better than Webber's. Being realistic, again, you are not going to be able to do this in 2008 or 2009.

Is the plan to use Webber as a stop gap, until you are able to provide a good car, at which point you bring in a top line driver?

Right now, of the middle of the pack teams:

BMW - they have Kubica, who might have the potential to win a WDC, in the right car. I see no need for them to change their driver line-up.

Honda - they showed ambition when they hired Brawn. They are showing more ambition by their will to perhaps bring in Alonso, at some stage.

Toyota - they seem to be happy to spend huge sums of cash, for finishing in the minor positions. They are going nowhere fast.

Redbull - they seem happy to use a lesser driver and seem to be waiting for something. I just dont know what they are waiting for.

Renault - its obvious that they are working hard to bridge the gap to the front 3 teams. Pat Syomonds is great. So is Briatore and they have a driver in Alonso, who is proven at the highest level.

 

[Sparky]

Interesting you mention BMW. They have a 40BHP gap over us on engine power,Honda have a 20BHP gap over us. Things may change soon but you did not hear that from me.

 

[Sparky]

Oh and we already have a good car! Checkout silverstone split times,we were the only car able to take Stowe flat. Ok the rest of the circuit we struggled but that is down to balance issues that our revised engine cover/rear wing setup caused.
We were also very fast at Hockenheim qualifying 2nd with 1 to 2 laps less fuel than Hamilton.