2008 German GP - Race 10/18

[FrankJH]

I think it is your logic that is flawed, bearing in mind that only a few posts earlier you clearly stated that it was pointless comparing someone with virtually no experience with someone who has raced a few seasons. Now you seem to have done a complete U-turn and are coming down on the side of Lewis Hamilton who has only competed in 25 or so races..

All I was trying to show is the CHANGE in their experience being massively different

Hamilton still beat Alonso (even with team FU/mechanical FU at the end of the year) over the whole season, and Hamilton has got better since then - if anything Alonso has got worse -certainly hasnt got markedly better

You are assuming that last year was a level playing field. As far as I'm concerned, it wasnt. Alonso was up against virtually the whole team who were not on speaking terms with him. They pretty much all wanted him out. Its not easy working under those conditions. .

At the beginning of the year it was heavily weighted in Alonso's favour - simply from his numerous years in F1 compared to LH's 0 races, no way in the world you can say it was in LH's favour (and no way Ron or MM would want Alonso to fail) - What you are talking about was only much later in the year, for at least 1/2 season (when Hamilton was doing very well) Alonso still couldnt keep up with him WITH the teams support

I'm sure you have a job. Imagine if nobody, including your own boss, was not speaking to you and all the rumours were that you were going to be sacked in a few months. This certainly wouldnt be conducive to bringing out the best in you..

I totally agree - but there is NO WAY MacLMerc would ever allow their star signing of the off season to start the season in that position, its against their better interests apart from anything else (and a monumental waste of money considering how much they where paying the whinging ***)

Alonso went through this and beat Hamilton, in the 2nd half of the season, pointswise. From what I remember, Hamilton crashed in the pitlane in China (nothing mechanically wrong, though his tyres were worn out - no big deal though) and in the last race of the season, he fell behind through his own actions.

dont be ridiculous - MM should have called him in for new tyres long before that (he was in the lead and could have easily made any extra time due to traffic after pit stop up) - the tyres where completely knackered

In Brazil there was a mechanical problem also - thats a good 14- 20 points he lost in two races, your theory would look a lot different considering those

Nope. Last year, Alonso showed how mentally tough he was to come back at Hamilton, even though he was working in dire conditions (see my comments above). No employee can be expected to compete/work at his best, when all hears are rumours that he is going to be sacked.

Hamilton was lucky that at McLaren, he was seen as the golden child and given full backing. He was never isolated (in the same way Alonso was). If he was to be put under this sort of pressure, I doubt he would perform anywhere near as well..

Hamilton had him licked in the first half of the season - without the team/rookie mistakes in the last two races , Alonso would have been completely hammered by someone who hadnt even seen 1/2 the tracks

Alonso made it difficult for himself by his own actions - you are basically accusing MM and Ron of cutting their own head off to spite their face, which is just stupid imo - only MUCH MUCH later in the last 1/2 -1/3 of the season was Alonso's positon un-attainable, he made his own bed so he had to lie in it

If the 2 of them competed in the same car, either McLaren or better still, Ferrari, my money would be on Alonso. He has the ability to develop and set up the car better than Hamilton (though juding from the last few races, Hamilton seems to have got the hang of this) and before this season, tended to make less mistakes.

so now you want to give credit to the person who should all along be making less mistakes ANYWAY!!!

Unlikely we will ever find out - so its a pretty moot point

You seem to be unable to think objectively as for whatever reason, you donot like Alonso. Myself, I like Hamilton a lot, but after last season, coming into a brand new team and working in such a (mentally) harsh environment, he proved that he is top class.

I am thinking objectively - I just think you are giving too much credit to Alonso for the 1/2 half of the season when the team WAS backing him fully (in the sense that they backed him equally with Hamilton, rather than as Alonso wished 90% behind him and the rest for LH)

Certainly in the last 1/3 of the season (and maybe a bit before that) yes of course with all the Spygate stuff and Alonso 's actions regarding that then his position became unattenable, but that was further into the season than you are alluding to - upto that point (and even incl that) it was all Alonso's own doing

 

[sunama]

I can see that we shall have to agree to disagree on this one.

Hopefully, Alonso will join Ferrari soon and then go up against Hamilton, fair and square, in a straight fight. It will sort out, once and for all, who the daddy of F1 is.

 

[Duke]

It will sort out, once and for all, who the daddy of F1 is.

Ralf is coming back?

 

[Cavallino]

I can see that we shall have to agree to disagree on this one.

Hopefully, Alonso will join Ferrari soon and then go up against Hamilton, fair and square, in a straight fight. It will sort out, once and for all, who the daddy of F1 is.

Not looking very likely now actually.

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/080722160640.shtml

and

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/080722140333.shtml

But who knows eh?

 

[NathanE]

I can see that we shall have to agree to disagree on this one.

Hopefully, Alonso will join Ferrari soon and then go up against Hamilton, fair and square, in a straight fight. It will sort out, once and for all, who the daddy of F1 is.

Would it though? Because the cars wouldn't be equal. IMO they would need to be in the same car, ala 2007 again

 

[JRS]

Hopefully, Alonso will join Ferrari soon and then go up against Hamilton, fair and square, in a straight fight. It will sort out, once and for all, who the daddy of F1 is.

But it won't, will it? Not in the eyes of many. Because they aren't going to be in the same car, and never will be again thanks to the way '07 ended.

In different teams, there is always that excuse ready and waiting if one of them beats the other. Say they pitch up at Melbourne, and Fernando in a Ferrari blows Lewis in a McLaren into the weeds. Could be just down to the Ferrari being better. In the same team, you can wipe that excuse out. But because McLaren are so inept at cheating, and because Alonso is such a petulant little sod despite his undeniable talent, we'll never see that particular pairing again. Unless, say, Ferrari hire the pair of them and run each side of the garage completely seperately. I can't imagine McLaren bringing Alonso back and running that kind of arrangement, and I can't see BMW stumping up the funds for a Hamilton-Alonso pairing. So which teams does that leave who can a) afford the pairing, b) afford to effectively build an entirely seperate team around each driver and c) provide cars up to the task of winning titles? It can only be Ferrari.

I honestly hope it doesn't happen. 1989 proved that if you put a pair of very competitive front-line drivers into the same team and don't add team orders into the mix, you'll get trouble. Unless....maybe McLaren aren't just inept at cheating, and can't do driver-management properly either. But you'd have to wonder how they got this far in racing without managing to pick up that skill along the way....


***edit***

Crap. Beaten to the punch by NathanE.

 

[NathanE]

"Unless....maybe McLaren aren't just inept at cheating, and can't do driver-management properly either."

You mean to say that 2007 didn't prove that too?

2008 they seem to be managing it better but only because Heikki is struggling, apparently, to get heat into his tyres.

 

[JRS]

"Unless....maybe McLaren aren't just inept at cheating, and can't do driver-management properly either."

You mean to say that 2007 didn't prove that too?

I'm still not 100% certain that a lot of the troubles last year weren't down to Alonso being such a petulant nobber. I know McLaren have dealt with troublesome drivers before (James Hunt springs to mind), but that was a looooooong time ago. Many years of the cool and calm Mika and the ever-so-nice DC might have spoiled them somewhat

 

[sunama]

Would it though? Because the cars wouldn't be equal.

I think the viewing public will have a VERY good idea of just how close the 2 cars are in terms of performance. EG. last year we knew that both Ferrari and McLaren were very close - McLaren had the edge in the first half of the season, while Ferrari had the edge in the 2nd half. Simlarly, in 2008, Ferrari have had the edge in the first half, while McLaren seem to have edged forward in the last race in particular (we cant use the wet race as a guide as its a little unfair).

Considering the above, I think we will have a very good idea just how the 2 compare. Obviously, if one of the teams is so bad (like Renault are this year, say), we cant really compare as they wont be racing or competing for the same positions.

In F1, anything is possible, so until Kimi signs for Ferrari and Alonso goes elsewhere, the Alonso to Ferrari rumour is still possible. Alonso could do well for Honda though. I did say last year, that Honda were pretty foolish to let Alonso goto Renault, though obviously, now with Brawn at the helm, he has identified, in Alonso, a driver who is capable of winning them races. Its pretty obvious that Button isnt going to be able to take on Hamilton.

 

[sunama]

I'm still not 100% certain that a lot of the troubles last year weren't down to Alonso being such a petulant nobber.

I think there were 6 big problems last year:

1. Alonso was/is big-headed. He arrived as the double world champ. As the only guy in recent years to beat the might of MS and Ferrari. He thought he should get special treatment, as is traditionally the case in F1. He didnt and this shocked him.
2. The fact that Hamilton was so damn fast also shocked him and put him on the back foot.
3. He also realised that Hamilton was seen as the love-child of McLaren. The golden boy as it were. It was very difficult for Alonso to be given preferential treatment, given that his team mate was the darling of the team. This caused major frustration.
4. Hamilton himself was ultra competitive. We saw this, not only when he was racing Alonso, but even in qualifying at Hungary, where he disobeyed team orders to ensure that Alonso did not gain an advantage over him. Hamilton, is just like Senna in this respect and I'm sure believes what he did that day was right.
5. McLaren's inept driver management.
6. All this coincided with the Spygate, which was also mis-managed by McLaren management and was made a HUGE deal of, culminating in the biggest fine in history, being handed out to a F1.

Alonso was indeed a factor, but so was Hamilton and McLaren management.

 

[Sparky]

I can see that we shall have to agree to disagree on this one.

Hopefully, Alonso will join Ferrari soon and then go up against Hamilton, fair and square, in a straight fight. It will sort out, once and for all, who the daddy of F1 is.

Struggling to overtake Vettel in a faster/lighter car = the daddy of F1? I am afraid you are deluded.

 

[Flibster]

Well... lets find some pictures of the steering wheel from pre-British GP and lets see if they were there before

*cough* Australia 2008

I see 3.... add another 3 on the other side....6

Renault have the same system apparently too.

 

[Cavallino]

*cough* Australia 2008

I see 3.... add another 3 on the other side....6

Renault have the same system apparently too.

Good find Flibster!

But as I said earlier, just because the paddles are there doesnt necessarily mean the actual system was implemented there and then.

It could well have! But we have no proof or frame of reference.

But if you add 2 + 2 together, Hamiltons flying form, and the fact that this technology was only announced/discovered in the press a few days ago, youd be hard pressed not to assume the obvious.

Anyway lets see how it pans out.

Not to be a stickler but can you prove thats Oz 08 btw ?

 

[Sparky]

Good find Flibster!

But as I said earlier, just because the paddles are there doesnt necessarily mean the actual system was implemented there and then.

It could well have! But we have no proof or frame of reference.

But if you add 2 + 2 together, Hamiltons flying form, and the fact that this technology was only announced/discovered in the press a few days ago, youd be hard pressed not to assume the obvious.

Anyway lets see how it pans out.

Not to be a stickler but can you prove thats Oz 08 btw ?

ROFL!!! Yes because F1 teams always stick things on cars and dont use it.

 

[hp7909]

Not to be a stickler but can you prove thats Oz 08 btw ?

The time, i.e. 1h 34:50.616

IMO McLaren have been fast since Canada.

 

[Cavallino]

ROFL!!! Yes because F1 teams always stick things on cars and dont use it.

All Im saying is that no one knows for a fact that the technology was implemented at the beginning of the year.

Even Whitmarsh annouunced after Canada that they were bringing some new tech to British GP.

Added to that the sudden surge in form...

Honestly, I dunno, theres too many possibilities...

 

[Cavallino]

The time, i.e. 1h 34:50.616

IMO McLaren have been fast since Canada.

You mean AT Canada? or AFTER Canada? Dont forget that after the first 6 or so laps, Raikonnen suddenly found his form and started to gain on Hamilton at an alarming rate and was only slowed because he had Kubica between him and Hamilton.

And then the SC came out, everyone pitted, rest is history.

And re: the time of Australian GP.... well.... dunno

 

[FrankJH]

I can see that we shall have to agree to disagree on this one.

Hopefully, Alonso will join Ferrari soon and then go up against Hamilton, fair and square, in a straight fight. It will sort out, once and for all, who the daddy of F1 is.

So Hamilton is switching to Ferrari also? I doubt it somehow - esp if Alonso is already there/going there

The whole point is equal equipment - and seemingly its rare that two different make of car is ever going to be equal for long

(edit - note to self to read the rest of the thread before posting )

I'm still not 100% certain that a lot of the troubles last year weren't down to Alonso being such a petulant nobber. I know McLaren have dealt with troublesome drivers before (James Hunt springs to mind), but that was a looooooong time ago. Many years of the cool and calm Mika and the ever-so-nice DC might have spoiled them somewhat

exactly

 

[GravyMonster]

Toyota Prius and the Lexus ***h models all use kinetic energy to recharge their batteries and were about long before BMW ed systems.

Ah fair enough, I stand corrected. Although in my defence I have avoided reading anything about the Prius as i hate the bloody things.

 

[NathanE]

I'm not sure about the KERS thing. It seems a bit dodgy having racing cars with loads of acid batteries in them. It's not like they can make a FIA foam storage bag like they have for the petrol...

Will certainly be some interesting accidents and safety car periods next season I reckon!