Caporegime
I still think we might be 5th, a lot has to go very right for us to be top 4 this season, especially after the start we've had. Confidence is low and we'd have to turn things around basically immediately.
**2014/15 Predictions thread**
- Thread starter No1newts
- Start date
Caporegime
Its super early in the season, Arsenal have 5 points and Liverpool 6, we have 2. Arsenal have got Welbeck as their main striker.
Soldato
Yeah pretty sound recommendations. Think Utd have enough to be up there challenging the top 4 and I don't see that Spurs or Everton have done enough.
Arsenal are in a bit of trouble IMO, if Welbeck settles in quickly I think they'll be alright but Giroud was a big blow just when they were looking like a settled team. Can see them having to put a good run in after Christmas to end up in the top 4 but they normally manage to do enough.
Arsenal are in a bit of trouble IMO, if Welbeck settles in quickly I think they'll be alright but Giroud was a big blow just when they were looking like a settled team. Can see them having to put a good run in after Christmas to end up in the top 4 but they normally manage to do enough.
Caporegime
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Why are people acting as if one, Giroud was a top notch player, two, we started the season well before he was injured, and three, that one of the other players, many of which have already been tried, will fix the problem. Giroud being injured is basically irrelevant, he both wasn't remotely good enough to begin with and it wasn't where our problems were. It was too many similar midfielders all waiting for someone else to run the ball and make the space for Ozil to exploit, or waiting for that pass in behind for a Sanchez to run on to.
GIroud was dropped, repeatedly, for Sanogo.... we still sucked. He wasn't good enough last season or this season, Welbeck isn't a competent replacement and it doesn't fix the fundamental issues with the team. Like Ozil being a huge girl when under pressure, like Sanchez being misused, like Wenger all but refusing to use Campbell or give him a chance we have a LONG list of players of his type who Wenger ignores(creative, actually does something with the ball, doesn't just pass to Ozil, can do something beyond tapping in).
We've got exceptionally little cover and haven't fixed any of the major weaknesses of last season(lacking DM, defensive cover, starting LB, high quality striker). Already this season we've played Sanchez, Giroud, Sanogo, Podolski(briefly) upfront, none of it worked, because the problem is in midfield/wide, not upfront. You can change who stands up front every game but when the problem is in midfield/wide areas, till we make changes there it won't matter.
Cazorla, Ozil and Sanchez have been woeful so far and Wenger continually ignores Campbell and Podolski to start his preferred players, no matter how badly they are playing... standard Wenger.
Two longer term defensive injuries and the season is over... somehow we went into this season weaker than last season because Wenger completely mentally loaned out Jenks and sold Miquel, neither world class, but still actual cover which we now lack entirely.
GIroud was dropped, repeatedly, for Sanogo.... we still sucked. He wasn't good enough last season or this season, Welbeck isn't a competent replacement and it doesn't fix the fundamental issues with the team. Like Ozil being a huge girl when under pressure, like Sanchez being misused, like Wenger all but refusing to use Campbell or give him a chance we have a LONG list of players of his type who Wenger ignores(creative, actually does something with the ball, doesn't just pass to Ozil, can do something beyond tapping in).
We've got exceptionally little cover and haven't fixed any of the major weaknesses of last season(lacking DM, defensive cover, starting LB, high quality striker). Already this season we've played Sanchez, Giroud, Sanogo, Podolski(briefly) upfront, none of it worked, because the problem is in midfield/wide, not upfront. You can change who stands up front every game but when the problem is in midfield/wide areas, till we make changes there it won't matter.
Cazorla, Ozil and Sanchez have been woeful so far and Wenger continually ignores Campbell and Podolski to start his preferred players, no matter how badly they are playing... standard Wenger.
Two longer term defensive injuries and the season is over... somehow we went into this season weaker than last season because Wenger completely mentally loaned out Jenks and sold Miquel, neither world class, but still actual cover which we now lack entirely.
Soldato
Yeah DM you find a list of things like that to moan about before, during and after every single season for the last decade and they still get into the CL so...
Caporegime
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Post moaning about wages spent over the last decade incoming in ...3 ...2 ...1
Caporegime
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What precisely is your point, without ever looking like winning the CL the ONLY reason to be in the CL is money, which doesn't interest me. Actually improving matters, playing better football that is less painfully frustrating to watch. Only if you believe being in a competition alone is a reward is getting 4th any kind of victory.
Wooooo.... we got fourth, we can afford higher wages on some of the crap Wenger refuses to get rid of, we can spend more.... while not looking competitive in the league or the CL.
4th and the CL are meaningless. A decade without fixing the fundamental problems with the team is embarrassing, it's the same reasons we drop out of the title race each and every year, it's the same reason we haven't improved in the champions league, it's the same reason our record against the top 6 in the league and any half decent team in europe is rubbish. They aren't big problems, they are more than fixable, Wenger refuses to fix them.
We have more unnecessary depth in midfield than any other team in the world, and two players as defensive cover, without a single top striker.... so Wenger spent big on another midfield/wide player, then on a crap striker, bought one defender but sold two and loaned another...... every freaking year same story as well.
Also yes, I will mention spending, Arsenal even with a FA cup are by FAR the most unsuccessful team in europe across the past decade. No other team has spent as much and won as little. We're in a group of higher than 100mil a year wage spending and have been near the top of wage spending in europe for years while dozens of other teams win fa cups, carling cups, and the league, on less money. Atletico/Dortmund, Porto, Inter for champs league. 4th is a bare minimum when Spurs were spending 80-90mil, Arsenal were spending 130-145mil and utd were spending 150-160mil. We were massively closer to Utd in spending but much closer to Spurs. Dortmund and Atletico have massive spending gaps to the teams ahead of them(and Valencia for that matter when they did it) yet won the league, Arsenal with a relatively small gap between them and Utd haven't threatened in a decade. No team spending over 100mil a year has been as unsuccessful as us. Spending 50% more than Spurs and beating them in many seasons by only a few points is frankly pathetic.
The longer we get into the CL, and yet never look like winning? I would say Liverpool had a huge amount of luck in their champs league win, meeting teams out of form, but most years the winners have luck along the way. Isn't that troubling, if Arsenal get in it year after year, surely ONE year should see us fluke a few big wins and get to a final, maybe even win it? How is it when we're in it so often, we never look genuinely competitive. How come after 38 years or something in a row we still lose every time. How is it acceptable that Wenger has more experience than almost anyone else in the competition, yet constantly looks completely lost as to how to approach those games and not get smashed to pieces?
Other managers after this many consecutive years would have had several longer runs, gotten to more semis or finals, maybe even won the damn thing. It's actually pathetic that we can be in it every year and that Wenger still hasn't learnt how to approach games with bigger teams and how we get bulldozed every single time.
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Soldato
Chelsea, Man City, Liverpool, Arsenal. I personally don't see Man Utd managing a european spot, even with a miracle.
Soldato
Thar she blows! Blah blah blah wages ignore transfer spending blah blah wages
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Caporegime
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Thar she blows! Blah blah blah wages ignore transfer spending blah blah wages
we've spent £230million in the last 4 seasons on transfers, people like to pretend that isn't true, and talk about net spend like Wenger is running the club on a shoe string... lol.
I haven't ignored transfer spending, transfer spending is situational, the longer a manager is in a job the less his transfer spending becomes.
If you take over a job and have four years, you can't buy Ronaldo for £15mil, you have to buy that player for £80mil, Wenger has had, lets be honest, incredibly little success in buying youngsters on the cheap and selling them on for huge amounts of cash. RVP, Fabregas. Nasri went for a lot but cost a fair whack. The longer you are in a job the easier it is to be picking up youngsters and having them come through after 2-5 years, Wenger is the ONLY manager in Europe to have that type of situation currently. Fergie was one of the few to have that previously.
This effects transfer spending. We've also gotten extremely lucky in terms of net spend thanks to City in their heavy spending phase overpaying for everyone they bought from us.
Our transfer spending isn't tiny regardless of what people think and we have frequently offered higher wages to younger players(Nasri, Fabregas, RVP) than other clubs were willing to offer to such players. So we got Fabregas but gave him higher wages than anyone else offered, total spend is all that is relevant, wages alone mean nothing and transfer spend alone means nothing.
Arsenal have spent more than everyone but Utd, City and Chelsea, and for half of our unsuccessful period City had no money.
It's you that is ignoring wage spending(and most people) in an attempt to suggest Wenger is doing things on a shoe string. No, longer term managers have every advantage than new managers don't have, and Wenger hasn't done a massive amount with it. We've had the CL draw and money to attract players and offer higher wages for like 74 years.... yet have no absolute top quality players in the entire team. Utd have 3-4, Chelsea have loads, City have loads. Despite the spending we have done, we have not a single top notch player, though we've paid top notch prices for two players who were flattered by the players around them.
Again, we've spent £230million in the last 4 seasons on transfers, another almost £600million in wages... and come up with two players in Sanchez and Ozil who simply aren't as good as Wenger thought they were. We've got a squad of not quite top players, and infact I would say not a single truly top notch player. Some good ones no doubt, and I'm not talking Ronaldo/messi level. I'm talking we missed out on that next level down entirely, the Fabregas, Di Maria, Falcao, RVP level. We've got no one of that level despite spending £230mil in the last 4 years alone.
Net spend is irrelevant in reality, regardless of net spend being £0mil or £230, we still actually spent £230mil, on too many of the wrong players, we've wasted money on the wrong guys for a decade. Every £15mil we spent on a Hleb,or £6mil on a Santos, or £10mil on a Gervinho or £12mil on a Giroud, is the money we could have spent on someone actually quality.
Wenger has no excuses, there isn't a manager in Europe you can look at and say "well you were in charge 3 years ago, let alone 8 years ago, why didn't you buy ANY of the current top players when they were youngsters". No other manager was in their current job when Ronaldo, Falcao, Di Maria, Ozil, Kompany, Aguero, Jovetic, Costa, Matic... etc, was cheap.
Wenger WAS in charge and didn't manage to find any of these top players. He was spending similar amounts on Hleb instead of Ronaldo.
Stop making excuses for him and ignoring the plan facts, the longer you're in the job the more chance you have to actually buy a team on the cheap, bring youth through, offset costs. Except, Wenger has been paying out massive wages, buying poorly, spending big, finding few up and coming players, finding no starts in the past 7-8 years.
Based on what exactly? So far this season you have been atrocious going forward, in your opening 3 games you've been painful to watch.
Is it more wishful thinking based on getting in Di Maria (who had Ronaldo, Bale and Benzema ahead of him last season) and hoping for a Falcao of 2 seasons ago?
Quite a statement, as for me your no where near the level of Liverpool, Chelsea or Man city. Even Arsenal are streets ahead of you in an attacking sense, and thats with an injury to Giroud and having Wellbeck as their 1st choice number 9.
I'm still struggling to see them finishing top four tbh, throwing money at players is no guarantee of success even if the players are big names.
I don't think United fans gave Chelsea/City enough credit for "buying their trophies", spending big on players is the easy part... getting them playing great as a coherent team is the hard part.
My prediction:
Chelsea
Man City
Arsenal
Liverpool
Newcastle
Palace
Burnley
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Soldato
ITT:
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That's your hope more than reality. It'll depend on form but we're definitely behind Chelsea and City. We'll certainly be comparable to Liverpool and Arsenal, remember we've had a lot of injuries etc which have badly affected things so far.
I know you'll disagree and all, but whatever.
Caporegime
Thats quite a ridiculous post. If you had watched United play this season you would see exactly where our problems lie and its not with our front 3 or 4 players. Its with the defence, CM and wingers / wing backs.
We have played without a huge proportion of our first team players in the first 3 games and we have bought more players since those game.
We will have Shaw, Rojo, Rafael, Herrera, Di Maria, Falcao, Blind in the first team instead of Young, Evans, Valencia, Cleverley, Fletcher and RvP (if he has surgery).
The only team that would be anything approaching good without 50% of their first XI (mainly defence and midfield) would be Chelsea. I know you are horrendously biased but what you are saying is just nuts.
True you have had a few injuries, but thats more the defensive side of your team, the wb's in your 3-5-2 have been shocking, Rooney has looked lazy and uninterested. Mata is unrecognisable to the person that won player of the year twice running for chelsea. I dont think you'll be playing any different (formationally that is) to how you've lined up pre-season and the 1st 3. So it depends on how quick shaw gets back from fat camp and if your rwb, (be that young or valencia?) adapts as they are hugely important in that formation.
Di Maria will need a pace and movement in front of him to play to his potential, will he get that with rooney and a half fit Falcao (big question marks over wehter he can come good after his latest acl for me, I know Lucas looks half the player in both pace and mobility after suffering a similar injury).
Lots of if and buts for me for man utd fans to thrown down any sort of comparison, in an attacking sense, to last years top 4.
How ironic
Di Maria will need a pace and movement in front of him to play to his potential, will he get that with rooney and a half fit Falcao (big question marks over wehter he can come good after his latest acl for me, I know Lucas looks half the player in both pace and mobility after suffering a similar injury).
Lots of if and buts for me for man utd fans to thrown down any sort of comparison, in an attacking sense, to last years top 4.
How ironic
Soldato
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Falcao was the best thing since sliced bread when you thought you were getting him. Now hes a half fit has been, awesome 