£210 TAX!?!?!?!?!?!!?!

PeterNem · 22 Mar 2006 at 22:49

I'm with you with this one adwhitworth, people with bigger cars already pay more in a much fairer way.... in that the amount of fuel they use and thus fuel duty paid scales much better than the road tax system.

I don't see my mondeo as being that big, yet it falls intot he top band. Thankfully the new band won't apply as it's an older car, but it'd falll into that too.

Glaucus · 22 Mar 2006 at 22:51

-Mike- said:
Oh don't you worry, judging by the price of diesel here (95.9p ) the government are already onto this fact.

Milage per price diesel is still cheaper, what I'm more worried about is the lower class. As much as *** goverment would like to disagree the car is an essential part of life. with out a car it is extremley unlikley you'll get a decent job and even less liek you'll further you'r career. Combine that with the exspense of small second hand cars, as well as exspnse of "green" cars. You'r pricingf the lowerclass out of transport and out of jobs..

the goverment should be removed from parliment... Why can't we organise strikes and demonstrations like the french.

Glaucus · 22 Mar 2006 at 22:54

clv101 said:
You talk of foresight?! It won't just be the 'poor class' that'll be in trouble in 2020 when the UK doesn't have any oil/gas from the North Sea yet still has an energy intensive transport infrastructure. The bottom line is that we need to reduce the energy intensity of transport - the best way to do that is through market mechanisms yet due to the lead-times when replacing infrastructure the market must receive external signals. That can be done through tax policy.

well you'r wrong on all acounts really. the north sea has loads of oil left. Even when its "dry" 40% of all the oil will still be there its just harder and less cost effective to salvage. Petrol will carry on for a long time and oil will. Alternatives are allready viable. You just need the ecnomic change to bring it in. This does not need to happen yet.

Gas shouldn't be a worry, nuclear should be the way forward for electricity...

-Mike- · 22 Mar 2006 at 22:54

AcidHell2 said:
Milage per price diesel is still cheaper, what I'm more worried about is the lower class. As much as *** goverment would like to disagree the car is an essential part of life. with out a car it is extremley unlikley you'll get a decent job and even less liek you'll further you'r career. Combine that with the exspense of small second hand cars, as well as exspnse of "green" cars. You'r pricingf the lowerclass out of transport and out of jobs..

the goverment should be removed from parliment... Why can't we organise strikes and demonstrations like the french.

I'd rather it slightly more american with certain things, for example I'd rather pay a small sum for health insurance, than get taxed on everything I do.

Slackworth · 22 Mar 2006 at 22:56

AcidHell2 said:
Milage per price diesel is still cheaper.

On the fuel alone yes. Remember though that tax will now be increased by £5 per year just for owning a diesel car and that if you are buying a diesel car then it will certainly cost more than its matching petrol counterpart. Service pricing is pretty much the same although the only bonus is that some diesels have up to 30k intervals now but this probably isn't great for the car.

Enfield said:
I pay £8 less than you for a £350 1600cc Fiesta, how wrong is this?!

That's harsh. Poxy government. :mad:

Glaucus · 22 Mar 2006 at 23:01

adwhitworth said:
On the fuel alone yes. Remember though that tax will now be increased by £5 per year just for owning a diesel car and that if you are buying a diesel car then it will certainly cost more than its matching petrol counterpart. Service pricing is pretty much the same although the only bonus is that some diesels have up to 30k intervals now but this probably isn't great for the car.

Don't get me wrong I agree with you. But if they are truley after enviromental solutions theres a lot more they can do than tax cars. cars are not the problem, there policys are. First build nuclear power plants. Safe, no greenhouse gasses and waste that is easily contained (if corners aren't cut to save money). what I dont get is natural gas will have a highly reduced rate of tax, although its waste, water is 100X more effective than co2 as a green house gas. You got to rember it doesn't run out the car as a liquid into the sea. Ut comes out as water vapour into the atmosphere, or runs on to the street that evaporates into the atmosphere..

Basicly its has sod all to do with eviroment and everything to do with money..

clv101 · 22 Mar 2006 at 23:04

AcidHell2 said:
well you'r wrong on all acounts really. the north sea has loads of oil left. Even when its "dry" 40% of all the oil will still be there its just harder and less cost effective to salvage. Petrol will carry on for a long time and oil will. Alternatives are allready viable. You just need the ecnomic change to bring it in. This does not need to happen yet.

Gas shouldn't be a worry, nuclear should be the way forward for electricity...

The amount of oil there is irrelevant - the rate of extraction is all that matters. When I say 'dry' I mean the rate of extraction of fallen to insignificant rates. The North Sea future is complicated by the fact that the majority of off-shore infrastructure is due to be decommissioned shortly after 2020 and the low rates of extraction are unlikely to make the sums add up to replace it. Nuclear may well eventually replace some gas - unfortunately new build will have to replace the ~10GW existing nuke capacity being decommissioned before it can tackle the gas shortfall and even then it's hardly cheap which is my whole point!

The country can’t afford to continue this high energy consumption and unless we dramatically reduce our energy use we’ll be the “poor man of Europe” once again.

Slackworth · 22 Mar 2006 at 23:10

AcidHell2 said:
Basicly its has sod all to do with eviroment and everything to do with money..

Nail and Head spring to mind. Aren't the Labour government lovely? :rolleyes:

Glaucus · 22 Mar 2006 at 23:10

clv101 said:
The amount of oil there is irrelevant - the rate of extraction is all that matters. When I say 'dry' I mean the rate of extraction of fallen to insignificant rates. The North Sea future is complicated by the fact that the majority of off-shore infrastructure is due to be decommissioned shortly after 2020 and the low rates of extraction are unlikely to make the sums add up to replace it. Nuclear may well eventually replace some gas - unfortunately new build will have to replace the ~10GW existing nuke capacity being decommissioned before it can tackle the gas shortfall and even then it's hardly cheap which is my whole point!

The country can’t afford to continue this high energy consumption and unless we dramatically reduce our energy use we’ll be the “poor man of Europe” once again.

well I totally disagree. Your assumption is fine till you take it to account economics. Once you take that into account its surprising what can happen. The rate of extraction does not have to drindle if the technology and infastructure is invested in, however at the moment thats not economicaly viable. However one day it will be. Same as why peak production rate is a load of BS. If the infastructure is invested in we can refine and pump much more oil. However whats in it for the oil companies. One of my mates is a geolagist for BP who reaserchs new sites for oil drilling. All I can say is theres a hell of a lot more oil than whats released to press.

Anyway I have to go2 bed got 2 be up at 6, I'll carry on when I get back from work 2moz...

chopchop · 23 Mar 2006 at 06:40

geiger said:
Fuel duties

All fuel duty rate changes will take effect from 1 September 2006.

Pence per litre (unless stated) - Old duty - Change - New duty

Sulphur-free petrol/diesel 47.1p +1.25p 48.35p

Ultra low sulphur petrol/diesel 47.1p +1.25p 48.35p

Biodiesel 27.1p +1.25p 28.35p

Bioethanol 27.1p +1.25p 28.35p

Road fuel gas other than natural 9p per kg + 3.21p 12.21P
gas (e.g. Liquefied petroleum gas LPG)

Natural gas used as road fuel 9p per kg + 1.81p 10.81

Rebated gas oil (red diesel) 6.44p +1.25p 7.69p

Rebated fuel oil 6.04p +1.25p 7.29p

No rise to petrol for other fuels see above. The LPG rise equates to +2p/litre apparently

http://www.gnn.gov.uk/content/detail.asp?ReleaseID=192138&NewsAreaID=2&NavigatedFromSearch=True

hang on, so bioethanol currently has 27p duty, why are morrisons selling it 2p a litre cheaper than normal petrol ???
i'd be more than happy to use it and change all my fuel pipes e.t.c

Dr Who · 23 Mar 2006 at 06:52

chopchop said:
hang on, so bioethanol currently has 27p duty, why are morrisons selling it 2p a litre cheaper than normal petrol ???
i'd be more than happy to use it and change all my fuel pipes e.t.c

Because at the moment its MUCH more expensive to produce...

That will change as more mass production kicks off..

I have been screaming about this for the last 7-8 odd years, saying farmers should be turning their empty fields in to crops for bio fuels...

The UK could have the next round of "biofuel barons" if they got their act together...

Glaucus · 23 Mar 2006 at 06:54

Dr Who said:
The UK could have the next round of "biofuel barons" if they got their act together...

Not really we could produce some, but we have no where near enough land to produce enough biofuels for ourselfs let alone sell it abroad.

chopchop · 23 Mar 2006 at 07:08

Dr Who said:
Because at the moment its MUCH more expensive to produce...

That will change as more mass production kicks off..

I have been screaming about this for the last 7-8 odd years, saying farmers should be turning their empty fields in to crops for bio fuels...

The UK could have the next round of "biofuel barons" if they got their act together...

why does it cost so much to produce??

it might be worth talking to our local MP's to get them to bring it up at parliment to encourage farmers to use their set aside fields to grow crops specifically for making ethanol. currently they get paid to keep them empty :eek:

clv101 · 23 Mar 2006 at 07:18

chopchop said:
why does it cost so much to produce??

Look up EROEI for biofuels.

Here's a linke to start you off: Reuters

weeble · 23 Mar 2006 at 08:50

Thought we exported the North Sea oil, as it's a high grade, and import a lower grade from other sources for domestic and commercial use (at a lower price obviously).

Also, I've bought a 1994 honda civic esi run around (whilst I sort out a new car) and it's getting 36mpg, and it's no slouch. Cars are just getting heavier and the improvements in engines are being cancelled out by the increase in weight. Most petrol cars are still achieving the same mpg.

There are alternative fuels that the petrochemical companies will have bought the patents, and I reckon are just keeping up their sleeves for the moment.

clv101 · 23 Mar 2006 at 10:07

weeble said:
Thought we exported the North Sea oil, as it's a high grade, and import a lower grade from other sources for domestic and commercial use (at a lower price obviously).

Yeah, sure - I'm just talking about the net result.

weeble said:
There are alternative fuels that the petrochemical companies will have bought the patents, and I reckon are just keeping up their sleeves for the moment.

That is pure faith based argument - where is the evidence?

weeble · 23 Mar 2006 at 10:11

clv101 said:
That is pure faith based argument - where is the evidence?

Fair enough about the net result.

Hydrogen cars and BMW springs to mind. Cleaner emissions too...as to what else they have up their sleeves, I haven't fully investigated.

clv101 · 23 Mar 2006 at 10:31

weeble said:
Fair enough about the net result.

Hydrogen cars and BMW springs to mind. Cleaner emissions too...as to what else they have up their sleeves, I haven't fully investigated.

hydrogen isn't analogous to oil... it more analogous to a battery.

weeble · 23 Mar 2006 at 10:41

clv101 said:
hydrogen isn't analogous to oil... it more analogous to a battery.

It's an alternative fuel, as the global oil reserves are depleting, as we all know, and becoming more expensive to extract. This is what the petrochemical companies are trying to grab, the alternative technologies, so they don't become obsolete when the reserves do eventually become economically unviable.

Think I've digressed from the taxing point of this thread...will try and be quiet for a bit.

Oracle · 23 Mar 2006 at 12:17

weeble said:
I'll get my horse and cart - 1 bale of hay/day = £365/yr

Or does my cart have to be registered!?!

Seriously, where does the RX8 fit in all this, being a 1.3? Or do they go on emissions now, in which case RX8's are screwed.

Just on a side note, The RX8 is not a 1.3, its twin Rotatry therefore making it a 2.6, so it was screwed from the start! Every V5 for RX8s says its a 2600cc car, so....................meh!