2nd Interview Attire

[Richdog]

Accepting all the negatives on the first job the OP has been offered where the only positive is "prospects" is extremely short sighted...

Prospects are worth nothing if they don't come to fruition

So because you have seen a 'few threads' where people's prospects have not come to fruition, that must mean that everyone else won't?

There is no indication that the OP's prospects will not come to pass. Yes, the OP is taking a gamble and will be financially worse off, but it's down to him to judge what he can afford to lose in order to make the potential career gains. If he thinks it will really improve his career, then it is worth thinking about.

 

[Syla5]

So because you have seen a 'few threads' where people's prospects have not come to fruition, that must mean that everyone else won't?

There is no indication that the OP's prospects will not come to pass. Yes, the OP is taking a gamble and will be financially worse off, but it's down to him to judge what he can afford to lose in order to make the potential career gains. If he thinks it will really improve his career, then it is worth thinking about.

I am not only basing my thoughts on a "few threads". I have direct experience of prospects not coming to fruition, over promising and under delivering employers, many friends and acquaintance's who at some point have been promised XYZ and not gotten it. I also have experience of prospects coming through and things going well, but this tends to happen a lot less often then the promises.

At the end of the day I am highlighting the facts, and based on the facts it sounds like a bad decision to jump at the first offered role with the factored in negatives.

If the net cost was neutral then sure its a whole different ball game, but the net cost being close to £2k, untold value in the loss of commute time, and the loss of holiday.

 

[joelk2]

Accepting all the negatives on the first job the OP has been offered where the only positive is "prospects" is extremely short sighted...

Prospects are worth nothing if they don't come to fruition and if you take a minute to look through some of the other threads in here it happens all to often that XY and Z are promised and never arrive.



OP while I respect what you are saying, I am advising that this seems like a very poor choice for you to be making.

While you say you will take a £700 per year drop but will save money on child care you still have the £700 loss as you will still be saving the child care money.

The saving in child care is effectively a net rise of £1680 (or equivalent of £2150 gross) staying where you are or moving so to mention it is a bit of a moot point (based on the information you have provided so far).

Losing 8 days holiday is big. You are losing over 20% of your current holiday. If your current work place allow you to sell them back holiday allowance then you can do this and reduce holiday to the same as the new place and be even better off. If you cant, you have 8 days more holiday that you can use more freely then fixed to bank holidays.

A 25 minute drive I will deduce a 15 mile commute (30mph average factors in town and b roads, not motorway, if this commute is motor way this cost just goes up). 30 miles per day 5 days per week giving a fair mpg of 35 works out to £90 in petrol per month, another cost of £1080 from your net, or effectively £1380 gross raise.

Overall you are looking at a new job at the bottom of the food chain with "prospects" for a net cost of £1780 and this doesn't factor in the value of the 8 days extra holiday (at £20k per year this is £600).

To get you back to the position you are in now you would need a gross raise of £2280, so even with prospects this might take a while.

I feel my feedback is not short sighted in the least here as I have factored in all the apparent negatives, while the positives are intangible.

thankyou for your feedback, I do understand what you are saying. I guess without knowing all the facts you are purely basing your comment on the numbers.

You say prospects arent gauranteed but I have them written in the contract, You will start as this and progress to this so i feel as this is concrete.

I havent tried any salary negotiations so far but know the position im going into within the company im not sure how i approach this?

put it this way, ive never been one to haggle.

im a design engineer by title, i design stuff. since my new manager has come into our department he's less concered with the work we do and more worried about the reports we produce and how we log how much we do. so from a career of designing stuff im now just a glorified admin/excel guru. i spend 90% of my day looking at excel spreadsheets rather than the job I want to be doing.

he micro manages and scrutinising everything we do.
if something goes wrong we get the blame before giving our side of the story even if the issue isnt our fault.
our thoughts and views are never conveyed or even taken into consideration.

to paraphrase something i said recently "i just want out of this place now, its living hell. i feel sad that i have to come here every day, im grumpy at home because of work. i stay up late every single night just so it seems longer until i have to come back in here. its depressing."

 

[tom_e]

to paraphrase something i said recently "i just want out of this place now, its living hell. i feel sad that i have to come here every day, im grumpy at home because of work. i stay up late every single night just so it seems longer until i have to come back in here. its depressing."

This is the most important bit as far as I'm concerned even if it meant moving to a minimum wage job at McDonalds I'd take it if I could financially make it work over being in that position again.

 

[joelk2]

I will add, for the qualifications and job i do currently I feel as ive im overpaid. (that only going on job adverts that ive seen)

other similar positions (for less money) ask for a lot higher qualifications/experience more than i have (my experience is within a very niche sector to which there are limited competitors and none local to myself) the new position is closer to a role i did 9 years ago.

 

[Syla5]

I havent tried any salary negotiations so far but know the position im going into within the company im not sure how i approach this?

I see no harm in you going back to the recruiter and saying you cant take a pay cut and leaving with them to go back to the employer.

They have offered you the job and clearly want you on board so going back and saying you were really looking for £1500-£2000 more and seeing what they say.

If you don't ask you don't get, and offers often come in below budget to leave room for negotiation.

It is difficult to quantify things fully without knowing salary ranges. asking for £1500 on a £15k per year job is very different to asking for an extra £1500 on a £30k per year job. Care to share this information? Understandable if not.

 

[joelk2]

I see no harm in you going back to the recruiter and saying you cant take a pay cut and leaving with them to go back to the employer.

They have offered you the job and clearly want you on board so going back and saying you were really looking for £1500-£2000 more and seeing what they say.

If you don't ask you don't get, and offers often come in below budget to leave room for negotiation.

It is difficult to quantify things fully without knowing salary ranges. asking for £1500 on a £15k per year job is very different to asking for an extra £1500 on a £30k per year job. Care to share this information? Understandable if not.

It was through an agency so have gone back to them with my concerns to get their opinion, they have said they would speak to the company on my behalf.

I'll keep you all up to date.

 

[Richdog]

I am not only basing my thoughts on a "few threads". I have direct experience of prospects not coming to fruition, over promising and under delivering employers, many friends and acquaintance's who at some point have been promised XYZ and not gotten it. I also have experience of prospects coming through and things going well, but this tends to happen a lot less often then the promises.

At the end of the day I am highlighting the facts, and based on the facts it sounds like a bad decision to jump at the first offered role with the factored in negatives.

If the net cost was neutral then sure its a whole different ball game, but the net cost being close to £2k, untold value in the loss of commute time, and the loss of holiday.

I think you are exaggerating the losses. 2k financially a year sn ba felt, but it is not the end of the world if you are already on a decent salary. Certainly not enough to not take a potentially good job for.

As for untold value in the loss of commute time... not it is not "untold value", it is a 25 minute drive. His previous situation of 10 minutes walk was the perfect, idyllic scenario as far as commutes go, and almost any switch in job is going to change that. Certainly not enough to not take a potentially good job for.

Loss of holidays is a shame, but if he was already on 28, which is higher than average, then going down to a regular 25 is also not the end of the world. Certainly not enough to not take a potentially good job for.

I accept he will take some hits, but if it a choice of stay in a dead-end job that he hates, and going for a new job that can lead to a better career, then for anyone with ambition the choice is definitely appealing.

 

[Syla5]

I think you are exaggerating the losses. 2k financially a year sn ba felt, but it is not the end of the world if you are already on a decent salary. Certainly not enough to not take a potentially good job for.

Its relative to salary and as it hasn't been mentioned what the OP's salary currently is, it would not be fair to comment on it being anything other than a factual figure. £2k net is still £166 from your take home. Even to someone on £26k per year that's the equivalent to 10%. A 10% pay drop is still relevant.

I am making an assumption that it isn't a hugely paying job as otherwise I would expect the OP to be offered at least the same as he was now. No reason for an employer to offer someone £39,300 if the candidate is what they are looking for and currently on £40k, however it is more relevant if the candidate is on £20k currently and the only have budget for £19k and have already stretched to £19,300.

As for untold value in the loss of commute time... not it is not "untold value", it is a 25 minute drive. His previous situation of 10 minutes walk was the perfect, idyllic scenario as far as commutes go, and almost any switch in job is going to change that. Certainly not enough to not take a potentially good job for.

Untold value is a fair comment. I don't know how much the OP values his own time. Does that 30 minutes extra travel time affect him seeing his child/children in the morning, or will it stop the OP seeing them at night before bed, who knows. Is that 30 minutes of extra travel time a conservative estimate at best and could it be considerably more at rush hour times thus being 1hr per day extra travel time. I don't know, so yes I cannot put a value on it, and neither can you, that is for the OP to decide.

I personally value my time quite highly. The extra travel time to me personally would mean not seeing my daughter in the mornings, or when she was younger it would be at both ends of the day, and you cant claim that time back. Once your kids grow up there is no going back and it makes a difference.

So to me, a pay cut and extra time out of the home is a double blow.

Loss of holidays is a shame, but if he was already on 28, which is higher than average, then going down to a regular 25 is also not the end of the world. Certainly not enough to not take a potentially good job for.

The OP has dropped 8 days of holiday in total. He had 28 + bank holidays, he now has 20 + 8 bank holidays. 8 days is 1.5 weeks of work equivalent, again not to be sniffed at.

I accept he will take some hits, but if it a choice of stay in a dead-end job that he hates, and going for a new job that can lead to a better career, then for anyone with ambition the choice is definitely appealing.

There's nothing wrong with taking hits, but there is also nothing wrong with not jumping at the first chance you get and assessing your options more fully.

No short sightedness, no over exaggerations. Just balanced thoughts for the OP to consider.

As more information is coming to light from the OP its sounding less like such a terrible choice, but its still not a slam dunk.

 

[joelk2]

There's nothing wrong with taking hits, but there is also nothing wrong with not jumping at the first chance you get and assessing your options more fully.

No short sightedness, no over exaggerations. Just balanced thoughts for the OP to consider.

As more information is coming to light from the OP its sounding less like such a terrible choice, but its still not a slam dunk.

i apprieciate both sides of the coin. ive counter offered an increase in salary.

at the end of the day im in a very dead end job which makes me miserable and its not going to get any better. the location is fantastic (but only as of last year when i moved house, before that i had a 10-15 mins car commute)

the new role is what i want to do and where i want to take my career.

The past 9 years ive learnt nothing, i went from a decent design job, took a step back and went for a lower skilled job which was close to home. (left due to commute changing from 30 mins to 1/1:20, company refused to pay me anything similar to others doing same job and i knew something dodgy was going to happen - they made the entire design team redundant the year after i left)

initially it comes with some sacrifices, but they are for the best. not only for the extra training and skills to be learnt but also it gets me into an industry which I can progress from.

 

[Syla5]

i apprieciate both sides of the coin. ive counter offered an increase in salary.

Good job. Fingers crossed for you.