30/11 Strikes.

platypus said:
Popular opinion certainly helps though, doesn't it? If you continue to alienate the people who vote, and they side with the government, it's hardly likely to work in your favour is it?

The reason 'because' isn't that though is it? It's because the unions actions are unpopular with the majority.
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Depends if your membership outnumbers the voting populace or not.

From 2007 Union membership has been steadily increasing after a decline year on year from 1979 to 2006.
 
oulton said:
GOOD question. Brown has strongly said that he wouldn't cut public spending to cover the deficit, and in this sentiment he would have been correct. The deficit has GROWN massively under the tories, AND we have all this public discontent, broken society and flatlining industry. Scandinavia and much of mainland Europe has increased public spending and come off better for doing so, because public spending stmulates the economy far better than giving tax cuts to the rich!
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The deficit has shrunk under the Tories, are you confusing deficit and debt?

Are you also confusing countries who ran fiscally conservative policies during the boom (and therefore could increase their debt without freaking the market) with the UK (and others) who ran fiscally irresponsible budgets during the boom and therefore can't?

Do you also have a citation for public spending being better, long term, than tax cuts, because it flies in the face of all conventional views of economics...

The financial collapse was not caused by any one government, it was caused by a runaway american style banking system spreading to europe and being adopted on the premise that 'if we don't follow the americans we will get behind'.
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Are you confusing the recession with the public spending crisis again?

The public spending crisis, in the UK, was the result of Brown's spending behaviour, and we were recieving warnings from 2002 onwards from international agencies about it. The recession caused by the banking crisis did not cause the public spending crisis, only prevented it from being covered up any more.

Countries which did not allow their banks to merge the savings and investment arms (doing away with the Glas-Stiegel act) have continued to flourish - I live in Denmark and believe me there is NO hint of recession here
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We never had the equivalent of Glass Steagall in the UK...
 
amigafan2003 said:
Because a strike SHOULD be disruptive - giving advance notice to your employer of your intentions enables them to make alternative arrangements.

Those alternative arrangements reduce the impact of the strike and hence it's effective bargaining power.

Cmon people, stop being so naive and use your noggin' a bit!
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But in order for your strike to be successful surely you need public support. If the sole purpose of the strike is to simply put the public in a severe state of inconvenience and not actually try and garner support for the cause en-route I don't think that's going to work out for you long term.

If the public are not behind you then surely that simply places the ball back in the governments hands, they could crack down hard on you and most people who would have been sympathetic to your cause would simply go meh, militants got what they deserved.

History is not my strong point but isn;t this exactly what happened to the miners ? too much militancy leading to public apathy of their plight and handing thatcher the mandate to do pretty much do anything the hell she wanted (even though she likely would have done that with or without public favour) ?
 
If it is OK to subvert the democratic process, then it is OK to subvert the subversive process, go for it Castiel.
 
amigafan2003 said:
There should always be a way to subvert the democratic process, it's actually an overiding requirement of a high function democracy.

Of course, if you'd like us all to live in a dictatorship disguised as a democracy then be my guest.
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Says the man who thinks authoritarian socialism is a desirable state setup...
 
oulton said:
If people don't strike, and CONTINUE to strike to show these CONS they mean business, this government will have sold the NHS off by the time their term ends and your poor grandma won't have an nhs to go to
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Don't talk balls. It's just not going to happen. So staff get smaller pensions than they'd hoped. Is it the end of the world? NO. Is it worth putting people's LIVES at risk? NO.

What WILL happen is that patients, like my grandmother, will suffer due to severe staff shortages and the staff who actually value their job and their patient's lives will be rushed and overstretched. The NHS is massively understaffed and overstretched as it is. Strike action will result in patients getting worse care. It's as simple as that. My partner is a ward sister. I know full-well how this works, because she knows how it works.

Of *course* we ALL want improvements in the NHS. But NOT during a time of worldwide economic turmoil. Do it in a year or two when things are far easier. Now is NOT the time.
 
nkata said:
If it is OK to subvert the democratic process, then it is OK to subvert the subversive process, go for it Castiel.
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But if it is OK to subvert the democratic process, then it is OK to subvert the subversive, subversive process
 
Dolph said:
Says the man who thinks authoritarian socialism is a desirable state setup...
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Did I say that? Can you quote me?

No, thought not.

Come on Dolph, I know you aren't a Tory and have regulary attacked that assumption on your behalf, at least do me the common decency to pay the same attention.
 
Xordium said:
Argh! It's that lot you want the CRB checks on! /joke
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Did I mention it was a Catholic School...:eek:

Anyway got a bit of organising to do, (well helping the wife who is whinging at me)...back in an hour or two....I let you know whats been planned.


The upset the wrong person when they upset the wife....:eek:

If they hadn't made arrangements and then cancelled them at the last minute then everyone would have been supportive rather than angry at them.
 
amigafan2003 said:
Because a strike SHOULD be disruptive - giving advance notice to your employer of your intentions enables them to make alternative arrangements.

Those alternative arrangements reduce the impact of the strike and hence it's effective bargaining power.

Cmon people, stop being so naive and use your noggin' a bit!
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As has been said, if the sole purpose is to **** off the public at large, then yes the unions are doing a great job; but, if the goal is anything further, then I'd consider public support to be pretty important.

And this is part of the reason why I think you're narrow minded, and blinded by union rhetoric; you've never posted even a hint of an indication that you could possibly consider the other side of the argument, let alone done so. We've been through this before, so I don't expect you to change.
 
amigafan2003 said:
Because contrary to popular opionion public support is not required, even though it may be desired.
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That confuses me a lot. If you are in public service you would surely want the public on side ? Statements like the above would surely encourage the public to hope the government break you and force you back to work.

surely it also shows to some extent that the public sector workforce is a smash and grab outfit that has no regard for the public it serves as a whole ?
 
Of course public sector workers pay tax on their income. Very little within the public sector is taxed -for example if a public sector department runs more efficiently it's better off. If a private company runs more efficiently it pays more tax on profits. Tax which could be paid into employee's pensions, for example.
 
amigafan2003 said:
Depends if your membership outnumbers the voting populace or not.

From 2007 Union membership has been steadily increasing after a decline year on year from 1979 to 2006.
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In the 1970's I was forced into a closed shop to work in a factory. We used to get called out for all sorts of rubbish and most members did not know what was going on.

Not all your membership feels or votes the same way, therefore you would need a membership equivalent to the population to be democratic.

Good luck with that one.
 
amigafan2003 said:
Did I say that? Can you quote me?

No, thought not.

Come on Dolph, I know you aren't a Tory and have regulary attacked that assumption on your behalf, at least do me the common decency to pay the same attention.
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Apologies, I've confused you with Floogie. My mistake.
 
cm1179 said:
simple. get a job in the public sector then, there's loads advertised. why don't you do this?
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Been there, done that, lasted less than a year before I got sick of the lazy attitudes, disinterest for work, short days, jobsworth atmosphere, mental political correctness, insanely inefficient and frustrating policies and procedures and the lack of job satisfaction from basically having a job so easy a monkey could do it - with people who found it difficult.
 
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