32 to 64bit aint a big leap, why?

[qwerty07]

Ah ok, thanks for the heads up

 

[Alibaba99]

Depends in which world you are talking. For home use 64bit doesn't have much requirement at the moment, however in the analysis industry things are rather different. We have been using 64bit analysis codes for years and they are required to allow both access to very large results files and also to speed the analysis up by allowing 10s of gigs worth of contiguous ram.

 

[hedgey]

64bit winrar is a lot faster than 32.

 

[Hades]

That's not true though is it. The problem has many factors and lazy software developers is quite high up the list of reasons.

In the vast majority of instances it is the compiler which makes the decision on how to handle numbers. The programmer has very little to do with it. If software was written in Assembler then it would. But with modern languages such as C, C++, Java, C#, etc, there is not much the programmer can do other than choosing the datatype - and if a large datatype is needed then it will be chosen usually irrespective of 32bit / 64bit environment.

 

[NathanE]

In the vast majority of instances it is the compiler which makes the decision on how to handle numbers. The programmer has very little to do with it. If software was written in Assembler then it would. But with modern languages such as C, C++, Java, C#, etc, there is not much the programmer can do other than choosing the datatype - and if a large datatype is needed then it will be chosen usually irrespective of 32bit / 64bit environment.

C and C++ aren't modern. These languages do require a certain amount of code changes to get the best out of 64-bit.

I agree that .NET and Java are pretty much set for 64-bit as they compile just-in-time.

I regularly program in all of the above (excluding regular C), so I should know

 

[Hades]

C++ and C being "modern" was in relation to Assembly. So could you give an example of where the programmer can make a big difference to the execution speed of code by refactoring from 32 bit to 64 bit on a 64 bit system?

 

[Tumbletop]

There is also a downside to using 64-bit words - that is your L1 and L2 cache can only fit half as many words in so the chance of a cache hit is reduced.

The main reason to go to 64-bit, as already stated above is to address larger quantities of memory. Windows XP 32-bit only allows you a 2Gb process size, which for large enterprise apps like databases and application servers (particularly Java based ones where the whole application runs under a JVM, ie. a single process and hence limited to 2Gb) this limit is a real bind. Given that many games are already using up to 2Gb, there is clearly going to be a need in the near future for larger memory blocks, which Vista will address.

Will there ever be a need for a 128-bit OS? Well probably, depending whether or not Quantum computers can ever be made to work sensibly, in which case I guess we'll move to 1-bit CPUs

 

[NathanE]

C++ and C being "modern" was in relation to Assembly. So could you give an example of where the programmer can make a big difference to the execution speed of code by refactoring from 32 bit to 64 bit on a 64 bit system?

An example? Like changing index data structures to use 64-bit pointers so they can properly take advantage of x64's enhanced memory space. That's where I'd probably start anyway. Do a few Google searches and you'll find plenty of ideas for optimising your code for x64.

 

[FrankJH]

and lets face it, MS has never been the best at optimizing code (after all the majority of home users who are using 64 bit os will be using windows, even though a Linux distribution would probably work "faster" and more optimally depending on what you are doing)

Win XP 64 is a step in the right direction, but its still relative bloatware and the OS is where you have to start before even considering drivers etc etc before the applications / games last of all (imo)

 

[Soul Rider]

But there are improvments even in the current games and applications we use at *** moment. One of the biggest being in Audio recording software. The upgrade to 64-bit has been absolutely brilliant for me in terms how many tracks and plugins i can use in the recording software.

Even games (I run the 64-bit verisons of UT2004 & Far-Cry without the Extra content) and saw huge improvements in FPS etc.

When adding the extra content, i got similar performance to 32-bit far cry but with amazingly more beautiful graphics. It really does make a difference, either on speed or detail, depending which path the programs follow.

 

[NathanE]

and lets face it, MS has never been the best at optimizing code (after all the majority of home users who are using 64 bit os will be using windows, even though a Linux distribution would probably work "faster" and more optimally depending on what you are doing)

Win XP 64 is a step in the right direction, but its still relative bloatware and the OS is where you have to start before even considering drivers etc etc before the applications / games last of all (imo)

That's wierd because most OS critics agree that XP X64 is the most stable and performant at the present time for AMD64. Have you seen the state of the Linux codebase to actually make any real comment on that last point?

Also if driver developers want to get WHQL signing their Vista drivers must be a dual 32-bit and 64-bit package. Both of which will undergo testing. So in a couple months the 64-bit driver issue will be well on its way to being solved.

 

[FrankJH]

That's wierd because most OS critics agree that XP X64 is the most stable and performant at the present time for AMD64. Have you seen the state of the Linux codebase to actually make any real comment on that last point?

Also if driver developers want to get WHQL signing their Vista drivers must be a dual 32-bit and 64-bit package. Both of which will undergo testing. So in a couple months the 64-bit driver issue will be well on its way to being solved.

Surely thats comparing Windows XP 64 to any other OS - rather than XP to itself - ie how it could be written if done better more streamlined?I was talking in generla though in regards to MS software as one entity where their applications /OS / games while reliable arent always as lean as they should be

This is just from what I have read and installed over 20 years experience in building pc's and knowing about IT in general - just my opinion mind

MS is often bloatware

Depending on the distribution Linux can be as bad, and can be a lot better. At least Linux works from the opposite direction and you can choose never to install stuff, or just install what you want, Windows as far as I have ever seen to start with you always have to install everything and then take out or uninstall a lot of ****

 

[tomos]

That's wierd because most OS critics agree that XP X64 is the most stable and performant at the present time for AMD64. Have you seen the state of the Linux codebase to actually make any real comment on that last point?

Also if driver developers want to get WHQL signing their Vista drivers must be a dual 32-bit and 64-bit package. Both of which will undergo testing. So in a couple months the 64-bit driver issue will be well on its way to being solved.

i had no idea that WHQL will *demand* they be written for both. i want to run the 64 bit vista Ed next year sometime and this is good news.

this doesnt mean apps will work tho does it? afaik 32bit apps wont work in 64bit vista

 

[NathanE]

Surely thats comparing Windows XP 64 to any other OS - rather than XP to itself - ie how it could be written if done better more streamlined?I was talking in generla though in regards to MS software as one entity where their applications /OS / games while reliable arent always as lean as they should be

This is just from what I have read and installed over 20 years experience in building pc's and knowing about IT in general - just my opinion mind

MS is often bloatware

Depending on the distribution Linux can be as bad, and can be a lot better. At least Linux works from the opposite direction and you can choose never to install stuff, or just install what you want, Windows as far as I have ever seen to start with you always have to install everything and then take out or uninstall a lot of ****

Whatever I don't know enough about the alternatives on this matter to make any worthwhile reply

i had no idea that WHQL will *demand* they be written for both. i want to run the 64 bit vista Ed next year sometime and this is good news.

this doesnt mean apps will work tho does it? afaik 32bit apps wont work in 64bit vista

Yup it's compulsory. If they want a WHQL certificate then it has to be a working dual 32-bit and 64-bit driver package. Both drivers of which must past the tests. I agree it definately is good news and it too caught me by surprise a couple months ago

32-bit apps will work just fine. Well, 95% of them - and average joes won't really encounter the 5% that don't.

 

[tomos]

that is deffo good news. i was worried that things would carry on and that the software crowd out there would treat 64-bit vista as XP-64. a few small treats but not enough to justify it.

hopefully we'll just end up with 64bit only in the not too distant...

 

[Hades]

An example? Like changing index data structures to use 64-bit pointers so they can properly take advantage of x64's enhanced memory space. That's where I'd probably start anyway. Do a few Google searches and you'll find plenty of ideas for optimising your code for x64.

Surely this should just be a compiler option? I'm not really up on C or C++ development but I'll give an example from my PL/1 and Cobol days on OS390 / ZOS... Very early on we'd be aligning our data structures for PL/1 v1.5 to word boundaries at declaration. Then along comes 2.3 and the new compiler is able to spot this and performs word alignment for you. Infact, by manually aligning, it can sometimes throw the compiler out and cause inefficiency.

I think the version numbers are right but it's been at least 15 years since I last used PL/1. But it's just an example anyway. I've dabbled in C and C++ since but not enough day-in, day-out to really comment on specifics. I'm more of a Java man now A quick google found quite a bit discussion of setting compiler options so I'm obviously looking in the wrong place And surely EM64T/AMD64 includes architechtural changes which can be used to improve efficiency, rather than just a move from 32 bit to 64 bit? I can appreciate that these differences may well need manual changes applied to get the best from them.

 

[Cob]

Yup it's compulsory. If they want a WHQL certificate then it has to be a working dual 32-bit and 64-bit driver package. Both drivers of which must past the tests. I agree it definately is good news and it too caught me by surprise a couple months ago

I didn't know that myself either. And thank gawd is all I can say. The WHQL requirement for x64 Vista is a PITA atm. It's 'disable' option in the Safe Mode menu seems somewhat erratic. Cfosspeed will load its unsigned driver without a hitch, but something as simple as Speedfan is blocked

 

[FrankJH]

Whatever I don't know enough about the alternatives on this matter to make any worthwhile reply


Yup it's compulsory. If they want a WHQL certificate then it has to be a working dual 32-bit and 64-bit driver package. Both drivers of which must past the tests. I agree it definately is good news and it too caught me by surprise a couple months ago

32-bit apps will work just fine. Well, 95% of them - and average joes won't really encounter the 5% that don't.

Got carried away with the footy last night so wasnt able to reply - maybe its just me who prefers having something slim and just being able to add stuff that you need as and when, rather than having everything as default and sliming it down - the latter seems to be a little more problematic but the former is only for experienced users etc 6of one half a dozen of the other

This is just my perception but you made a very surprising post about whql drivers, fabulous as well but i hadnt heard that - do you think that he majority of common hardware - maybe thats the wrong word, common to OCUK users have upto date WHQL drivers available? Last time I checked it was taking a month or so to get drivers verified thru the labs? Especially with mobo chipsets etc having so many different addons one driver that isnt availabel etc messes up a complete installation

Iv been thinking about investing in XP64 - as it looks like Vista is going to be frighteningly expensive to start with, but there just arent enough games out there that run naturally on it to be worth while - or maybe you know different?