360 Elite Prone to Same Problems as Others

manoz · 30 Apr 2007 at 14:10

Yous think a smaller fab process would have reduced the failure rate?

james.miller · 30 Apr 2007 at 14:12

only if it was an inherent floor in the components they are shrinking. i cant see shrinking the cpu doing any good if its the cooling mechanism which has been suggest before, for example That would just mean it would take longer to overheat. I don't personally believe that the problem is overheating at all.

Streeteh · 30 Apr 2007 at 14:20

From what i've read and seen from various sources, due to laws concering childrens toys in the USA you are unable to have any lead parts, in this case its the law gone mad. The result of this law is that the 360, which is considered a childrens toy, has had to use inferior lead free solder to connect components. While the stuff conducts electricity just as well as its lead based equivalent it is far more brittle. The result of heating and thus warping of components causes the brittle lead-free solder to fracture.

There are guides online on how to replace the solder on the components responsible for these issues, however it does require quite a reasonable amount of know-how and skill so its out of the question for most of us.

rp2000 · 30 Apr 2007 at 14:29

Kreeeee said:
My elite list is:

Elite
talismoon whisperfans
Arctic Silver 5 thermal paste
x clamp removal kit
sheet plastic to redirect/split airflow.

Hi Just out of curiosity I assume you have done this on your xbox 360 premium already? Do you have any pictures? Or is this a new experiment you are doing on the Elite only?

Also How much does all of the above cost in total roughly?

rp2000

james.miller · 30 Apr 2007 at 14:31

Streeteh said:
From what i've read and seen from various sources, due to laws concering childrens toys in the USA you are unable to have any lead parts, in this case its the law gone mad. The result of this law is that the 360, which is considered a childrens toy, has had to use inferior lead free solder to connect components. While the stuff conducts electricity just as well as its lead based equivalent it is far more brittle. The result of heating and thus warping of components causes the brittle lead-free solder to fracture.

There are guides online on how to replace the solder on the components responsible for these issues, however it does require quite a reasonable amount of know-how and skill so its out of the question for most of us.

see, now that is very plausible and not something changing any component will fix. However, dont forget it is a legal requirement that no lead (well, up to 0.1%) is to be used in solder and it has been that way in the EU since july 2006, and many companies were compliant before that date.

so that begs the question, why isnt other lead free equipment failing at such a rate?

JUMPURS · 30 Apr 2007 at 14:37

james.miller said:
so that begs the question, why isnt other lead free equipment failing at such a rate?

Yeah such as the PS2, PS3, Wii, DS etc, they are all made in Asian plants with, i presume, the same lead free standard of solder.

But what is curious though is that heat fixes it.

mcmad · 30 Apr 2007 at 15:10

problem with the old 360 design is the main board is warping slightly due to the heat the CPU/GPU are kicking out, this puts strain on the BGA connections for the CPU & GPU, basically some of the little solder balls are losing contact. This is why the heat gun trick can fix them, you are effectively resoldering the chips to the mobo. Ive seen 4 360's fixed with this method & it is the primary method used by companies who offer to repair the 360's.

If you look at the elite pictures you will see they have used clear epoxy around the CPU/GPU in an attempt to keep them in contact with the main board.

a smaller fab process will reduce the failure rate as there will be less heat generated so less warping will occur.

I also wonder if this would have beena problem had they been allowed to use solder with lead in it ?

cheets64 · 30 Apr 2007 at 15:11

Every Sony, MS console breaks, some break, a heck of a lot dont break.

Swings and roundabouts, I knew loads of people whos PS2 laser broke.

james.miller · 30 Apr 2007 at 15:13

cheets64 said:
Every Sony, MS console breaks, some break, a heck of a lot dont break.

Swings and roundabouts, I knew loads of people whos PS2 laser broke.

yeah they had awful laser problems. but this is really more of a case of if everybody else can manage it, why are ms having problems?

Mr Men · 30 Apr 2007 at 15:32

james.miller said:
yeah they had awful laser problems. but this is really more of a case of if everybody else can manage it, why are ms having problems?

Most are user problems IMO, I see so many pics with the rear exhaust fans nearly against a wall or something or stuck in a cabinet, or surrounded with junk and things on top of them.

JUMPURS · 30 Apr 2007 at 15:35

Mr Men said:
Most are user problems IMO, I see so many pics with the rear exhaust fans nearly against a wall or something or stuck in a cabinet, or surrounded with junk and things on top of them.

Yeah all of us who have broken ones are becuase we treat it different from any other piece of electrical kit. If it needs to be x feet away from everything else etc etc maybe MS should announce that, but even then still doesn't work, know folk on here like, i think it was Dannyjo who had gone to extremes to keep his working, and it still failed.

james.miller · 30 Apr 2007 at 15:38

Mr Men said:
Most are user problems IMO, I see so many pics with the rear exhaust fans nearly against a wall or something or stuck in a cabinet, or surrounded with junk and things on top of them.

im sorry thats rubbish. a friend of mine has gone through 3 of them and his stands on its own with plenty of air flow.

Nismo · 30 Apr 2007 at 15:42

Mr Men said:
Most are user problems IMO, I see so many pics with the rear exhaust fans nearly against a wall or something or stuck in a cabinet, or surrounded with junk and things on top of them.

I would say the opposite, most are NOT user problems, the minority of 360 deaths will be because of people being thick.

My original console broke with the exact same symptoms as people who supposedly treat theirs badly, yet I never moved mine and gave it more than a sensible amount of clearance around it.

Its a problem with the manufacturing process or components, not user error (in general).

Kreeeee · 30 Apr 2007 at 15:55

james.miller said:
im sorry thats rubbish. a friend of mine has gone through 3 of them and his stands on its own with plenty of air flow.

I agree. As much I like the 360 and hate the sony fangirls always sqeualing on in 360 threads there are definite production/manufacturing/design issues that cause the consoles to be inherintly flakey.

mcmad said:
I also wonder if this would have beena problem had they been allowed to use solder with lead in it ?

There would be far fewer problems as the electrical engineers at Bristol Uni all complain about board warping/stress causing fractures of solder joints when using lead free solder. This is still no excuse as other conoles (presumably unless sony have purposely circumvented the laws) can manage it with lead free solder.

Mr Men · 30 Apr 2007 at 15:58

Teletraan-82 said:
I would say the opposite, most are NOT user problems, the minority of 360 deaths will be because of people being thick.

My original console broke with the exact same symptoms as people who supposedly treat theirs badly, yet I never moved mine and gave it more than a sensible amount of clearance around it.

Its a problem with the manufacturing process or components, not user error (in general).

How would you know? you just got unlucky thats all

off course everytime one breaks the person would never accept it was not well looked after or not well ventilated, its human nature not to accept blame. And off course there is always the token "my friend has had 20 of them comments, to make it sound better."

james.miller · 30 Apr 2007 at 15:59

everybody i know treated their £280 console with care. thats just being daft to think that the vast majority of people who own one dont.

Mr Men · 30 Apr 2007 at 16:00

james.miller said:
everybody i know treated their £280 console with care. thats just being daft.

Can treat it how you like, but if the vents are blocked and its jammed in a cabinet as most console owners do then its gonna have problems....I would not put my PC in a cabinet or block its rear vents....

Kreeeee · 30 Apr 2007 at 16:01

Mr Men said:
How would you know? you just got unlucky thats all off course everytime one breaks the person would never accept it was not well looked after or not well ventilated, its human nature not to accept blame.

That's a very weak arguement, I am a complete retentive about looking after my consoles and my 1st 360 still died. Mine was horizontal on a table with at least a foot in all directions from anything else and 4 feet from its rear vents to the wall. It was also in its own surge protected socket, never moved and was raised 3cm off the table by rubber coasters under each foot.

Explain that one kid.

Nismo · 30 Apr 2007 at 16:03

Mr Men said:
How would you know? you just got unlucky thats all

Lol, well unless everyone's lying (and I forgot to mention I know 2 other people personally who have had it happen - I know what there setups were like) then I think I do know.

dirtydog · 30 Apr 2007 at 16:03

Mr Men said:
How would you know? you just got unlucky thats all off course everytime one breaks the person would never accept it was not well looked after or not well ventilated, its human nature not to accept blame. And off course there is always the token "my friend has had 20 of them comments, to make it sound better."

You don't accept that there might be an inherent manufacturing problem with the console?